Elk will be gone in Idaho by 2012

[idahohuntr]

grazing might well be a mute point, too much livestock losses to continue that practice for much longer.  Unfortunately this also curtails PRIVATE land grazing, more livestock looses have occurred on private lands than public in WA.  To me this is a loss of private property rights.

So in keeping with the theme of this thread, are you projecting there will be no more open grazing in NE Wa soon because of wolves?   

[idaho guy]

So.... help me get this straight.  Cattle eating the deer/elk browse is good for deer and elk because it stimulates the browse??  You guys are kidding right?

 

It's amazing to me that anybody can say that grazing benefits wildlife habitat with a straight face. Why do you think bighorn sheep numbers are only a very small fraction of what they were in the past? That's just one example. For those who say grazing benefits wildlife habitat, which college did you go to and what did you study?

Always saw a lot more deer on ranches with cattle than on areas not grazed.  Cattle would focus more on grasses and some of the broad leafs.  Seemed the browse could come up, rather than be choked out by three foot tall grass.

Most of the professors in our universities are opposed to predator management, opposed to logging, opposed to grazing, and in general opposed to most any use of the land. They teach students that all these uses are bad for our lands so all the students believe that is true and after graduating are hired into biologist positions believing all use and predator management is bad. I don't blame individual biologists for being misinformed because that is what they were taught to get their degree so they can get a job.

I simply ask that anyone with an open mind look at the facts:

grazing, farming, and even gas and oil development is very compatible with wildlife when done properly. Obviously extreme use will have a detrimental effect just as no use seems to have a detrimental effect on herds.

Simply look at the facts for the truth!

  Thats the problem with all the qoutes I see from biologist and studies etc. They can write whatever they want but I am inclined to believe what I see and have seen with my own eyes. I think this is part of what bearpaw and others are saying too. They have spent a lot of time in the outdoors and can SEE the effects of things over time.  Contrary to the modern thinking coming out of universities man can improve on nature and is and integral part of the equation-we always have been. The biggest problem I see is they are convincing people that man was never part of nature and that anything a man does in the woods is somehow harmfull.  Can we be harmfull to the environment? Yes but done right we can and have been great stewards of the outdoors and often have made things better . I read one report where a biologist suggested cattle were essential to eastern montana and other grass/prairie land because they were replacing what bison did when millions grazed all that land. This is one bioligist I could agree with!  I would think also that logging and grazing go hand in hand in most areas. We loggged some of our propety last year to open it up and plant it for grazing! We have horses and cows on it but the deer like it alot better too. There is something too eat besides pine needles now!     

[WAcoyotehunter]

I know that this might seem blasphemous to some of the folks on here, but HABITAT is not just deer and elk habitat.  We should care for the land in a way that encourages other species as well... i.e. martens, fishers needing forests..... black footed ferrets needing grasslands with squirrels.....

Stop thinking only about ungulates.

[Special T]

Well if the the WDFW doesnt care about Deer and Elk some one has to... At least deer and elk taste good...

How about increasing the numbers and distrobution of one of the finest meals out there... Opossum!

[Bob33]

Well if the the WDFW doesnt care about Deer and Elk some one has to... At least deer and elk taste good...

How about increasing the numbers and distrobution of one of the finest meals out there... Opossum!

Careful now. My friend values them highly and uses them for emergency navigational purposes in survival situations. He keeps one in his backpack when hunting alone. If he gets lost, he turns it loose – it will always go straight to a road.

[Special T]

LOL! Ive never heard that one before! 

[AspenBud]

I know that this might seem blasphemous to some of the folks on here, but HABITAT is not just deer and elk habitat.  We should care for the land in a way that encourages other species as well... i.e. martens, fishers needing forests..... black footed ferrets needing grasslands with squirrels.....

Stop thinking only about ungulates.

Good grouse habitat typically also holds deer and elk and bear and cats and any number of other animals. Mixed age forest doesn't mean creating a monoculture of forest that serves one subset. That's the thing, everyone has lost track of what a healthy forest looks like. You can't log everything at once and you can't just leave it alone, at least not so long as we put out forest fires.

[wolfbait]

I know that this might seem blasphemous to some of the folks on here, but HABITAT is not just deer and elk habitat.  We should care for the land in a way that encourages other species as well... i.e. martens, fishers needing forests..... black footed ferrets needing grasslands with squirrels.....

Stop thinking only about ungulates.

Wolf Predation

What the world needs to learn from the Slate Islands is that wolves, not habitat, limit ungulate populations.

http://idahoforwildlife.com/Charles%20Kay/76-wolf%20predation-more%20bad%20news.pdf

[bearpaw]

I know that this might seem blasphemous to some of the folks on here, but HABITAT is not just deer and elk habitat.  We should care for the land in a way that encourages other species as well... i.e. martens, fishers needing forests..... black footed ferrets needing grasslands with squirrels.....

Stop thinking only about ungulates.

Good grouse habitat typically also holds deer and elk and bear and cats and any number of other animals. Mixed age forest doesn't mean creating a monoculture of forest that serves one subset. That's the thing, everyone has lost track of what a healthy forest looks like. You can't log everything at once and you can't just leave it alone, at least not so long as we put out forest fires.

I'm not aware of anyone saying that all lands should be logged and grazed, or that all lands should be logged at once. I appreciate the assorted land uses and the wildernesses that we have, but like thousands of other citizens, I'm tired of the continual push to eliminate multiple use and make everything wilderness!

[AspenBud]

I know that this might seem blasphemous to some of the folks on here, but HABITAT is not just deer and elk habitat.  We should care for the land in a way that encourages other species as well... i.e. martens, fishers needing forests..... black footed ferrets needing grasslands with squirrels.....

Stop thinking only about ungulates.

Wolf Predation

What the world needs to learn from the Slate Islands is that wolves, not habitat, limit ungulate populations.

http://idahoforwildlife.com/Charles%20Kay/76-wolf%20predation-more%20bad%20news.pdf

I find it interesting that the author points to never before seen elk and moose numbers, as in never before seen success in the last 12,000 years, as a trigger that has caused wolves to be too successful and thereby pushing some species to the brink. That actually makes some sense.

Not to start a firestorm, but based on that article one could argue that the caribou's predicament is largely a result of poor big game management (not enough being harvested) compounded by the reintroduction of the wolf. That means everyone is culpable. Interesting.

[AspenBud]

I know that this might seem blasphemous to some of the folks on here, but HABITAT is not just deer and elk habitat.  We should care for the land in a way that encourages other species as well... i.e. martens, fishers needing forests..... black footed ferrets needing grasslands with squirrels.....

Stop thinking only about ungulates.

Good grouse habitat typically also holds deer and elk and bear and cats and any number of other animals. Mixed age forest doesn't mean creating a monoculture of forest that serves one subset. That's the thing, everyone has lost track of what a healthy forest looks like. You can't log everything at once and you can't just leave it alone, at least not so long as we put out forest fires.

I'm not aware of anyone saying that all lands should be logged and grazed, or that all lands should be logged at once. I appreciate the assorted land uses and the wildernesses that we have, but like thousands of other citizens, I'm tired of the continual push to eliminate multiple use and make everything wilderness!

I agree with you there. Or rather, I'm tired of people assuming man should not be a part of the ecosystem and how it evolves. We have a role to play in managing it.

[KFhunter]

With the Kinds of losses experienced in "Fee range" cattle I would expect that the Feed Lot business would be a much better financial move...

To some of you guys in the Know... How high are High fence operations that keep deer elk and Wolves out? How much is it to put the fencing in?

Will we see certain "Game" related issues go away because more  farmers fence and pen thier animals and grow the feed out side the wire?

fencing that will deter wolves will also deter deer, elk, moose and anything else too big to squeeze through or agile enough to climb over.
We don't want to checkerboard the forest with high fence do we?

[KFhunter]

grazing might well be a mute point, too much livestock losses to continue that practice for much longer.  Unfortunately this also curtails PRIVATE land grazing, more livestock looses have occurred on private lands than public in WA.  To me this is a loss of private property rights.

So in keeping with the theme of this thread, are you projecting there will be no more open grazing in NE Wa soon because of wolves?

Ask Dave Dashiell if he'll run his sheep out on private Hancock land again, I almost bet Hancock drops their lease programs and just sprays instead.
They had the sheep out there to help with some invasive weed but with all the media attention I'll wager they resort to herbicides and forgo grazing. 

As yet I don't know any ranchers giving up their leases. 

I guess the ball is in WDFW's court and if you're asking me to predict if they'll manage wolves to a level that grazing can happen with minimal conflict...I'm dubious. 

[AspenBud]

grazing might well be a mute point, too much livestock losses to continue that practice for much longer.  Unfortunately this also curtails PRIVATE land grazing, more livestock looses have occurred on private lands than public in WA.  To me this is a loss of private property rights.

So in keeping with the theme of this thread, are you projecting there will be no more open grazing in NE Wa soon because of wolves?

Ask Dave Dashiell if he'll run his sheep out on private Hancock land again, I almost bet Hancock drops their lease programs and just sprays instead.
They had the sheep out there to help with some invasive weed but with all the media attention I'll wager they resort to herbicides and forgo grazing. 

As yet I don't know any ranchers giving up their leases. 

I guess the ball is in WDFW's court and if you're asking me to predict if they'll manage wolves to a level that grazing can happen with minimal conflict...I'm dubious.

I'll wager that someone with some money would be willing to scoop up those leases and throw cows on them. There is a point where, if the operation is big enough, a lot of loss can be absorbed and money still made. For now at least I'm guessing this is more of a small herd problem???     

[Special T]

With the Kinds of losses experienced in "Fee range" cattle I would expect that the Feed Lot business would be a much better financial move...

To some of you guys in the Know... How high are High fence operations that keep deer elk and Wolves out? How much is it to put the fencing in?

Will we see certain "Game" related issues go away because more  farmers fence and pen thier animals and grow the feed out side the wire?

fencing that will deter wolves will also deter deer, elk, moose and anything else too big to squeeze through or agile enough to climb over.
We don't want to checkerboard the forest with high fence do we?

Of course i dont think that is what we want.... But lets be realistic... A market steer or cow calf is worth how much? I thought i heard some where that a Market steer is worth $2-3k. How much fencing does that buy? And how many seasons does it last? It would seem to me in Wolf prone areas It might pay off in the long run. It doesnt appear that wolves are going anywhere soon, at least in WA state...

Im not a big fan of High Fence Operations for hunting but It would seem a Win Win for bigger operations saving nice elk AND protecting the cattle. Once you reach a certain size, Farming/Cattle is just a numbers game... Investment Vs reward. If you have a hostile political environment and a less than committed WDFW then what other options are there? How many times have we heard on here that if farmers dont want animal damage perhaps they should protect their crops with fences... The Apple orchards do it...