Baiting Deer

[Ray]

I think there is legitimate reason to be concerned but the sky isn't falling just yet. And from my point of view the contributions from people baiting deer towards the spread of CWD is not something that I believe anyone has a grasp on in order to say it is a major contributing fact at all. Some of the deer populations in our state live in true wilderness areas that are inhospitable let alone hard to get at when compared to Wisconsin. I'm not a rocket scientist or a biologist but I would guess that some of the populations would be more susceptible to spread of the disease with regards to baiting if they lived in areas where there are human beings willing to do that. E.g. big corn fields across the state. Not too many corn fields high up in the Cascade Range but there are plenty of places for deer to hide from the bait. If you want to call it hiding.

I believe there can be some lessons learned from other places but the diversity of Washington state is not the same as Wisconsin so things that they are having problems with may not correlate to the same things here.

I also don't believe in the ban it now syndrome because it is much like a knee jerk reaction. I feel that the biologists will make a political move if they believe it is necessary to stop baiting and that it affects the population enough to justify it. I cerainly would hope that if it ever took place that it would be an interim solution instead of a permanent one though.

You still have not made the connection which I challenged though. And I don't think there is a study which exists in Washington state for you to do that but I would gladly read it if it was to magic itself out of thin air some day. Which is not impossible..

As far as electronic devices are concerned your tired old boring speeches about ethics are just that.

[robodad]

I think there is legitimate reason to be concerned but the sky isn't falling just yet

Tell that to the newest Wisconsin hunter education graduate who lives in a DEZ (Disease Eradication Zone) and cannot go out his back door any longer to hunt because the state had to kill them all because their biologists didn't make their political move soon enough.

I believe there can be some lessons learned from other places but the diversity of Washington state is not the same as Wisconsin so things that they are having problems with may not correlate to the same things here

What if they do ??

The point is that we know it exists and are there more studies being done, well sure there are. but we can't just look the other way until it affects us here, There may not be a study about CWD in Washington but Washington has already banned any sort of bones from entering the state so there must be some concern over it.

 Wisconsin has deer and Washington has deer, that should be enough of a connection for you to see that there is a real possibility of this disease coming here and we should be trying harder to prevent that instead of "I'll fix it when it is broken"


I'm not going to spend a bunch of time researching more and more information that you are not going to understand so I'll just say that I simply disagree with baiting and I appreciate you views.

[Red Dawg]

I may be mistaken but isn't this disease generally started when the animals are high fenced and then they overpopulate the ground they are living on and they end up eating there own feces. This comes from not correctly thinning out herds. The main thing that pisses me off is the high fence thing. In time if things keep going the way they do the normal man will not be able to afford to go on a decent hunt because of the high fencers. You cant get on hardly any websight anymore without outfitter advertisements. What is the hunting world coming to. Instead of hunting their but of people go pay someone a lot of money to do it for them. I am not saying that all outfitters are bad, but i will never support high fencing game. It is not right, I dont care what any of you say. Do high fencers bait? I don't know. The high fencer is what is going to eventually ruin our hunting.

[Ray]

I think it's more than arrogant to assume I don't understand what chronic waste disease it.

In addition to that I don't believe I have suggested to look the other way and I also have nothing to do with telling some kid in Wisconsin what is going on.

You have continually attempted to make some conspiracy based around baiting and that it is a significant contributor to the spread of Chronic Waste Diseasee. If you actually take a look at what I have written here again and again you would be able to conclude that I do believe that it can be spread at bait or feeding stations but also that I don't believe it is the straw which broke the camels back when we discuss the impact on the population here. If there was information which directly proved that say 60% of animals that contract Chronic Waste Disease did so from someone's salt lick or feeding station then it would be a lot more compelling than a bunch of scare tactics and voodoo speculation. Tactics which make your argument to ban something which is likely to be having little effect on the population if you ask me.

[singleshot12]

singleshot - just buying that hunting license already makes you into the enemy. Catering to their wants is not the solution as far as I can tell. They want to you to cater to their wishes. At that point you are under their influence.

In my opinion you'll regret any banning on baiting when you realize that you are making deals with the enemy.
[/quote]I completely understand and agree with the points you are making and maybe banning baiting isn't the answer. I 'm all for baiting bear because that is the only way to keep the population in check,same with cougar hunting with hounds,-logic is it should have remained legal.
But my point is there is no need to hunt deer with bait,to me it takes away from the traditional way of deer hunting and takes very little skill to kill a deer over a baitstation and shouldn't be IMO associated with deer hunting, I guess keep it legal,but remove it from the fair-chase way of hunting.
As far as desease goes,anybody that's raised livestock knows that if you want healthy animals without antibiotics you have to be very careful when feeding.
One more thought,  I've hunted ducks my whole life, and we always figured since baiting ducks was illegal it was because it's considered unsportsman-like,unfair,and unethical, IMO same goes for deer  and elk.

[Palmer]

I'll point out again that in Idaho where you can use scents but no baits there are more trophy sized bucks to be harvested, whereas, in Washington near a group of feeders the four of us saw three 4 points of maybe 1 1/2 years old.  Those hunting the feeders were most likely very successfull during the late whitetail opener.  However, next year they may find that the number of trophy class bucks has severely decreased due to their success through their ten feeders.

To me it wasn't so much an ethical issue but rather complaining about a favorite spot having less trophy class bucks due to someone elses success.  I can't afford ten feeders with timers.  More to them I guess.  

The best thing for me to do is find a new area where no one is using feeders and probably harvesting 3+ trophy sized bucks a day.

[Skyvalhunter]

That statement about banning trailcams is definately far fetched. He is reaching for straws.

[robodad]

I am not arrogant, I did not say you know nothing about CWD, You asked me to pull up some research on the subject so I did and you are passing it off like it isn't there.

I agree that there is more that needs to be done on the subject but there is evidence that baiting spreads CWD no mater how small the percentage is don't you think it would be wise to discontinue a practice that has been proven to cause substantial harm to any deer population, It is like making your family eat somewhere you know will harm them but don't quit until they are sick 

Deer don't get sick directly from the feed, so I am not saying you are poisoning them, the fact is that when one deer gets sick the disease will spread through contact with other deer and by baiting them you invite a bunch of deer to congregate in an area with a sick deer and more will likely become ill.

That statement about banning trailcams is definitely far fetched. He is reaching for straws.

Have the use of trail cams actually helped you kill bigger and better animals ??

I also have nothing to do with telling some kid in Wisconsin what is going on.

No but you may be telling this to your grand son here in Washington in the near future !!

I can see this argument is going no where, I was just trying to bring a different perspective to the table and obviously some of you are completely unwilling to understand that though legal some of the stuff we do now could be determental in the future if we let it go.

 

On a lighter note, You may see my kids on Americas Funniest Home Videos, or hear about them in the emergency room, My wife just bought them a new trampoline  and I have to go set it up now !!

[Houndhunter]

"saw three 4 points of maybe 1 1/2 years old"

i have a hard time believing that whitetails there first year could produce that, over here. i have seen some dinky 3points with eye guards that they "say" our first years but they was from texas and other states that have some decent whitetail genes

[Ray]

robodad you have not said anything new for a while now. Let me know when you have your evidence because your studies and research are not what I asked for a while back. I hear your words and don't agree with you. That's it. I'm not convinced by scare tactics and information which is speculatory and suggestive. I am usually a facts person and if that is too much for some people then they'll have to realize some day that they can argue their points until their death but it may never change my mind. To me you have not proved anything by referencing general research known to most people who can google it. And hardly any of that is evidence which I specifically would consider to sway my opinion.

[Palmer]

"saw three 4 points of maybe 1 1/2 years old"

i have a hard time believing that whitetails there first year could produce that, over here. i have seen some dinky 3points with eye guards that they "say" our first years but they was from texas and other states that have some decent whitetail genes

In the fall a deer in its first year would be 1/2 year old - a 2 point most likely if whitetail.  A whitetail deer that will be a 4 point will be a 4 point in its second year or 1 1/2 years old and the same is true for a 5 pt or a 6 pt.  A 4 point will still be a 4 point in its 6th year.  However, every year their rack should be bigger with more forks in thier eyeguard until they are around 6 1/2 - 7 1/2 years old.  If still alive at 10 1/2 they look old, some grey hair, and arthritic.  Now a doe with antlers is worth thousands of dollars so take it straight to the taxidermy or don't mess up the cape.

Also, the whitetail in Idaho and Northeastern Washington are far bigger than Texas.  If you go to Canada, they are even bigger.  In fact many of the northern states have bigger whitetail than Texas.  Try Ohio and Illinois.  I haven't looked at Boone and Crocket but that only lists the size of their rack.

[robodad]

Huntwa, it is ok if you don't understand what I posted, I can't help that but I sincerely thank you for allowing me to post it on your site for others to read.

I am not sure what more evidence you need, maybe you think I am a biologist or something and have some deer at my house that I test every now and then to get evidence and that is not the case, Just like most folks in here I rely on google to gather information and have no reason to call dozens of biologists and researchers liers, since I have not done the testing myself.

Tell you what, why don't you post some evidence (not your opinion) that proves that CWD cannot be spread by baiting. then you may have a valid point.

[Ray]

robodad you have continually exuded arrogance with the claims you make that I don't understand what I am talking about. If you believed it yourself you would have left this alone a long time ago. But somehow you seemingly think you will win me over in the discussion or prove your point to me or something else with the same set of remarks again and again. It will never happen and I have not followed this line of thought process in the discussion as you have from the beginning. Instead I objected and ask for specific factual examples instead of relying on indirect attacks at someone else's hunting tactics. For example: I have not made the distinction of telling other people that their hunting styles are the scourge of this sport as if to black mark them. You have even suggested that I was baiting or do bait animals in a previous remark. It's entertaining to me how you would be able to conclude that from your computer so far away.

As I have said before - I have never said that CWD was not capable of being spread by baiting. I can tell that you have not been actually digesting what I have continually pointed out. Here was my first response in this direction which was about 4 pages back. There were at least three more similar ones where I challenged you to provide evidence that baiting is the main contributor for CWD here in Washington

I'd say that unless there is some compelling reason to believe that hunting over bait for an animal is having devastating effects on the species' numbers then it should be off limits for banning.

That is the evidence I need. Hope you got it because I have been saying that for about 4 pages and you still did not provide it yet.

The reason why it is not worth even responding to your challenge about me proving something that I don't believe in (that CWD cannot be spread by baiting) is 1) Well I don't believe it and have continually told you so. and 2) In america we usually work on the premise that someone should provide compelling evidence or examples why a practice should be banned. Not some self appointed expert talking about something without evidence.

[Coasthunterjay]

I can see this argument is going no where, I was just trying to bring a different perspective to the table and obviously some of you are completely unwilling to understand that though legal some of the stuff we do now could be determental in the future if we let it go.

Yeah, we can "what if" the hell out of everything that comes to hunting and wether this person thinks it ethical or if this person doesnt. regardless what it comes down to is that someone in Washington state obviously doesnt think this is a problem. I am sure that here are alot of respected and highly trained professionals, biologist, and organizations out there that i am sure have probably looked at this, and have found out that this is not an issue. So lets not make it one. And *censored* like this isnt anything that we need to be worrieing about. its just like what Huntwa said" the sky isnt falling". This is a stupid yes or no question and im really supprised to see that there is as close to a disagreement on this as there is......

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH .......Why cant we argue about something that affects us now....something that is stopping us from doing what we all love to do. lets not pull stupid *censored* like this out of our asses.

ROBODAD, i totally hear and understand were you are comming from and understand that you worry for the next generation boom that is comming through. yeah i worry about things for there ggeneration also.....but Animal disease and Problems like what you are talking about are not any......

IF YOU WANT TO CONSENTRATE YOUR WORRIES ON SOMETHING FOR YOUR KIDS.......you may want to think about worrying about how we use to be able to walk out our back doors or drive 10 to 15 minutes max to go hunting. But now we have to travel half way across state hike half a day to get into a trustable area....and then still cross our fingers that we will see deer.....Sir everyday our mountains get smaller and smaller......you want to worry about a WHAT IF factor about our animals health. just remember that if you dont worry about the decrease in public hunting areas that there soon might not be anywhere for your kids to hunt....And really this is only one of a bunch of things that we should worry about......HUNTWA stated a couple as well. like the Wolf problem....trust me those arent just coyotes that are there for weekend target practice....

WORRY ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE THAT WILL EFFECT YOUR KIDS LATER BUT EFFECTS YOU NOW!!!

I hear your words and don't agree with you. That's it. I'm not convinced by scare tactics and information which is speculatory and suggestive. I am usually a facts person and if that is too much for some people then they'll have to realize some day that they can argue their points until their death but it may never change my mind. To me you have not proved anything by referencing general research known to most people who can google it. And hardly any of that is evidence which I specifically would consider to sway my opinion.

Agreed!..........I would try worrying about more important things....your Facts and findings dont even put a shred of worry that we may have this problem.....

Tell you what, why don't you post some evidence (not your opinion) that proves that CWD cannot be spread by baiting. then you may have a valid point.

Maybe some one should prove to us that this is something that we need to be wooried about right now!

BECAUSE IT ISNT!

[Cougeyes]

Give it a few more years if it continues on the path that it is and the anti-hunters and peta people catch wind and they will somehow get it outlawed.