Repeat of "88" The end of the Entiat deer herd

[CJ-5]

Wow, thats pretty interesting.  I dont know much really about that herd or how it used to be, other than just hearing people say its not as good as it was.  I did not know about all those tags that were issued.

[Redmist]

Thanks for listening.  Sometimes I get on here and vent.  I'm frustrated also but I try to tell history as I have seen it come down since hunting and/or owning property on the Entiat River since the 70s, ya baby.  When I was a kid, I used to see dudes with black boots, silver leather, and horn,, sporting big racks.  Made me want to tango.  Things are for off to the left shoulder if you don't switch hit.

[Viszla]

Well put Redmist.  I feel the same as you.  The Chelan deer herds are not anywhere close to being at sustainable numbers.  I'm a 4th generation hunter in that area and it sickens me to see the decimation of that deer herd.  But what do I know,I'm not a biologist(at least that is what the game department tells me).

[seaduckhunter]

Its not just the Chelan herd it is mule deer herds in all North Central Washington.   I hunted Swakane as a kid when the season went clear into mid Nov.  We always shot our deer later in the season.  I also hunted Twisp/ Winthrop area and would see 75 to 100 deer a day and now am lucky to so see 20.  Populations are just not the same.  I would say doe to buck ratio I believe have increased but still there is far less deer total.

[DOUBLELUNG]

The Chelan herd used to pump out over 9,000 deer harvested in  peak years in the 1950s and 1960s.  The herd probably ranged from 60,000-100,000 deer at that time.  Now the herd pumps out less than 2,000 harvested in peak years, often less than 1,000; it probably ranges from less than 10,000 to perhaps 20,000 in the past 20 years.  Predators were hunted far more aggressively, legally and otherwise, and were certainly less numerous.  Accessibility was way down, most hunters had cars and were restricted to the main logging roads for access - beyond that, it was boot time.  Equipment was far simpler, gadgets pretty close to nonexistent compared to today.  Highly flammable weeds weren't dominant in the foothills, and the human population was much smaller and much more rural, and while less educated a heck of a lot smarter about things like fire.  Forests were intensively managed, the old growth of the mid and upper elevations was pretty much clear cut off over a 40 year period ending in the 1970s, and meadows and early successional areas were grazed by livestock.  The foothills and low elevation riparian areas were full of low density, ladder picked fruit tree orchards which were pruned throughout the winter, providing an incredible browse resource.  Herds were knocked down by killer winters, but rebounded within 2-3 years of good conditions.  

These conditions were not great for a lot of rare species, trout/salmon/steelhead, and other critters, but were ideal for mule deer.  Smart or dumb, WDFW has little influence over the big things that affect mule deer herds; neither does ODFW, IDFG, MTFWP, CODOW, WYGF, NMFG, AZFG or any of the other state wildlife agencies which regulate mule deer hunting.  They aren't holding herds way below the potential of the habitat, the habitat for migratory, mountain-foothill  mule deer herds throughout the entire range of the species has declined precipitously.  (In my opinion, the primary causes rangewide for migratory mule deer population changes have been changes in forest practices by the USFS and land management by BLM, and habitat destruction and degradation on the winter ranges).  

Harvest management changes now favor higher buck survival, but hunter preferences have shifted from success to antler points, so the older age classes receive far greater pressure while 1-2 year old bucks have higher survival.  There are far less mule deer now than in the 1950s and 1960s, when mule deer numbers probably reaches their highest populations EVER.  Mule deer are far more abundant and widespread than they ever were 100 and 200 years ago, but are far less abundant than 50 years ago.

[Lowedog]

Doublelung, very educational, thank you!

One only needs to look at the non typical category of the record books for WA and realize that the good old days for mule deer was 50+ yrs ago. 

[gasman]

You know, one thing everyone keeps missing is the amout of people that are hunting all areas in the state. There are way more hunters today then there were 50 years ago. The population growth and expantion in to more rural areas keeps getting deeper in to the woods. Where 50 yeays go a person would have a huning cabin in the woods, now we have community's.

There are so many differnt factors that have changed the amout of wild game in this state (most all states), that you can not blame one thing, there are to many veriables that play a part in the factor of loss game.

[mulehunter]

You know, one thing everyone keeps missing is the amout of people that are hunting all areas in the state. There are way more hunters today then there were 50 years ago. The population growth and expantion in to more rural areas keeps getting deeper in to the woods. Where 50 yeays go a person would have a huning cabin in the woods, now we have community's.

There are so many differnt factors that have changed the amout of wild game in this state (most all states), that you can not blame one thing, there are to many veriables that play a part in the factor of loss game.

   WOW Population people in American growing twice! I found out its almost 500 Million people in American.  Cant complaint to EACHOTHER!   People need to ZIPPER PANT!   

Mulehunter 

[Elkaholic daWg]

   Great post DEOUBLELUNG! When I started hunting with the family and friends in 1968  we hunted many areas of Chelan county. Chiwawa, Blewett, Entiat, Swakane, Colockum.... in different years, and weekends, since the season was a month long.
 It WAS a great time for hunting, but I would bet there were as many hunters then as now.  back then hunters were a much larger % of the population, and many places of  employment became uninhabited friday of opening weekends. Don't see much of that now in THIS state
 About the time environmentalism became almost a religion is when the downfall started. Anyone remember a 3,2, or 1 log load on a logging truck?. VERY rare to see now.
 Colockum was fun elk hunting when the gameys (and there were MANY more then) drove around in chained up Dodge Darts! at that time I would guess 90% of pickups built were 2WD.
 Redmist, I remember the big herd reduction was in 88 as Antlerking stated. I know there were many bad fires in 94, but no fiasco as in 88 for the  Washington department of fish and (I miss it) GAME!

[Redmist]

You are right.  1988 was the big Swakane fire?, because I started hunting the Desert Units through the 90's because they were putting out big bucks and wern't getting noticed like today.  Then about 1990 everybody quit the Entiat (because of that fire slaughter) and a mass influx hit the sage.  The I went back to the Chelans late 1990's and had a field day before the internet really got going.  So all that being said, I should be tapping the border -50 Sin now if I had the energy since Chelan and Desert are pummeled?  Too many deer, too little time.  All B.S. aside, the Swakane fire harvest overkill  hurt that herd, probably more than the fire.  So I wish they would not go ape  again with the fires.  That upper post about the orchards was spot-on and I was going to mention how I wasn't seeing head in the orchards like I would in the 1970's. 

[Lowedog]

Redmist, you bring up a good point about the internet and sites like this.  As much as I enjoy visiting these sites I think that they have had about the biggest impact on hunting/hunter success.  We have discussions about advancements in equipment making things too easy but I think those things pale to the web where someone can gain info that would have taken them maybe years to learn in a few minutes. 

There are/were some publications also that have printed some very specific locations that have had a great impact on certain areas over hte year.

Not to say that I feel it has hurt the game herds as a whole but I do think it has hurt the numbers in certain areas and contributed a lot to hunter success.  Info at your fingertips and something to keep the fire burning all year long is a powerful tool.

[bobcat]

Yes, I think the internet has had a dramatic effect on hunting success, and that is why in the not too distant future, we will no longer have general seasons for deer and elk. I remember back in the 80's and early 90's, a guy had to actually go out and scout to learn new areas. Now you can just sit at the computer and get all the information you need. It sure is a time and fuel saver, but it's definitely put increased hunting pressure on certain areas.

[DOUBLELUNG]

Redmist, you bring up a good point about the internet and sites like this.  As much as I enjoy visiting these sites I think that they have had about the biggest impact on hunting/hunter success.  We have discussions about advancements in equipment making things too easy but I think those things pale to the web where someone can gain info that would have taken them maybe years to learn in a few minutes. 

There are/were some publications also that have printed some very specific locations that have had a great impact on certain areas over hte year.

Not to say that I feel it has hurt the game herds as a whole but I do think it has hurt the numbers in certain areas and contributed a lot to hunter success.  Info at your fingertips and something to keep the fire burning all year long is a powerful tool.

I completely agree.  Always hurts to have some d-bag post, in precise detail - or a highly identifiable photo - your favorite hunting spot.  Three guys can keep a secret - just as long as two of them are dead.

[bearhunter99]

[/quote]
I completely agree.  Always hurts to have some d-bag post, in precise detail - or a highly identifiable photo - your favorite hunting spot.  Three guys can keep a secret - just as long as two of them are dead.
[/quote]

Ain't that the truth, I have lost some pretty nice hunting spots over the years to people who heard from a friend or what not where to go and overpopulated the area with their friends and their friend's friends etc etc.

[Ridgerunner]

I've lost a few spots due to some photos being posted.