good day 4 the tribe

[colockumelk]

First of all WSU I appoligize.  After re-reading that post I realize I sound like a jerk.  So sorry, I didn't mean to come of that way.  Oh and BTW I AM smarter than the Wildlife Bio's   Seriously who sounded smarter in that article me or the WDFW?

According to the WDFW there were a FEW elk east of the Cascades.  There was a Selkirk herd, and a Blue Mountain Herd.  Both most likely killed off by settlers or because of habitat.  No one knows for sure.  As far as a Yakima and Colockum herd there was none until the early 1900's when we planted them.  Any elk that wandered east of the PCT is believed to have come  from the West side as elk often migrate great distances.  When settlers arrived here they did not report any elk.  Deer but no elk.  According to tribal history they did NOT hunt elk.  As they would have to travel too far to find elk.  They did HOWEVER, trade for elk meat.  Lewis and Clark also did not see elk since leaving Idaho until they got West of the PCT.  If you would like I can dig those sources.

To be honest though in what we are talking about none of the above info matters at all.  I do realize how hard legally it would be to do anything.  And we would probably fail.  Unless we undertook a huge PR campaign and got the true word out instead of a "White Guilt" version from the other side I think it could and would happen.  But what else should we do WSU??  The Yakama's have shown themselves to not give a damn about elk or deer or responsible wildlife managment.  How much has American's sacrificed as far as more and more restrictions?  What has the other side given up??

I just want some equality.  If the Treaty is such a big deal to the Yakamas then why do they allow their members to drink alcohol?  Something needs to be done and soon before that herd dissapears.  You are correct that we kill far more "bulls" than the Yakams do.  Although this gap gets narrower every year.  In 2006 the WDFW estimated that they kill 40 branch bulls a year.  Whitefoot has even admitted that since then especially in the last few years the amount of tribal hunters up there has grown dramatically so this number is probably even higher.  I am going to do all that I can to save this herd and want permit only really bad and this is not a secret.  We are going to do our part we just want the other side to do theirs.  You sound like a very intelligent person and have definately made me think and given me a run for my money.  What would you suggest we do.?

I'm serious.  I understand your points as far as the legal issue.  We probably wont agree on some of this stuff.  But doesn't mean we can't be on the same side.  What course of action do you think would be best to take?  The Colockum WILL go to permit only soon.  That is a 100% guarantee.  But it wont matter if the Tribes are not willing to play ball and do their part as well.   6x6 you are my newest best friend.  You make some awsome points.  And you can call in bulls for me anytime

[runamuk]

I guess the question is do we just let the state manage our herds right into extinction 

I haven't even touched on the west side issue of spreading and uncontrolled hoof rot that eventually will likely destroy many of the elk herds over here....from the research i did they have known of this problem and OSU was doing a minor study into it as regards to the deer along the columbia that are also infected.....seems it is limited to elk and not spreading to cattle or sheep so it is of little interest......I mean who cares if we have HEALTHY elk populations ..... resources in this state are so mismanaged its ridiculous, preference is given only to those who pitch the biggest bitch or have the money to line pockets ..... But I still think we can somehow get the majority of sportsmen and outdoors enthusiasts and yes even tribal member to see the need to change if we want any resources left in this state for our grandchildren.  There will always be poachers and those whose greed can never be filled...Indian and non indian....we need to deal with these people equally....the tribal members following the rules are being burned by those who aren't as much as hunters are smeared by slob hunting and poaching....so hold them accountable and make a stand if the state wont...or let the elk go the way of the dodo 

It is gonna take all of us that care to make something happen.....and those who keep saying we cant do anything well...I for one am glad the women who fought for my rights didn't take no for an answer 

[Coastal_native]

6x6rack,

No, I don't purchase a state tag or hunt by state regulations...I think thats what you were asking...?

Our regs are pretty lengthy, but I'll try to summarize.  As far as legal hunting methods, calibur of weapons, shooting hours, wasting, etc... everything is pretty identical to WDFW regs... I'm pretty sure most of the language is copied.  The major difference obviously is bag limits and seasons, which vary from year to year depending on harvest data, population trends, composition counts, and what WDFW is allowing.  Our bag limits are on a per household basis, and most of the time it is 2 elk and 4 deer per household, except single person households who are typically allowed 1 elk and 2 deer.  We sometimes have conservation closures in certain GMU's for cows/does and often it's because we're "piggy backing" off WDFW's conservation closure.  To my knowledge we've never really restricted spike vs. branched bull harvest.  Sometimes we have extended seasons that last past the end of Dec. and usually its because we've witenessed a low amount of harvest due to a lack of access in the early season (mainly fire closures in late summer).  Our extended seasons mostly occur on reservation for antlered bulls, but sometimes we'll open up cow hunting in January if WDFW is also issuing tags for population control.  Our hunters rarely hunt off reservation when state seasons are open, so allthough we have a lengthy season we're really only hunting off reservation for about two months total. 

colockumelkelk

Thanks for the education on the colockum situation. 

If the Yakima's are only following what their hunting regs allow...that makes for an "interesting" situation.  It seems as if the co managers in this situation might have different management goals.  I know, I know...one guy shooting 6 bulls in the same area doesn't really sound like it fits into any managment goal, but under our regulations (including the designated hunter program) it is possible that this could be the case with one of our tribal members...and it is, but as long as all six elk get eaten, none of them were poached, and it is not to the detriment of overall heard health (not to be confused with bull composition) I can't complain...even if they were all trophies.  But...I'm not saying that your situation in the colockum fits that description.  I'm pretty sure it'd be hard to swallow if I was in your shoes.

It is not pertinant to this discusion, but I find it interesting that on the westside...if WDFW estimates a GMU to have X amount of branched bulls...they will sell an unlimited amount of branched bull tags for archery, rifle, muzzle loader.  I know some people love the opportunity to hunt elk every year, but is that really sound management.  Would state hunters rather have a 30% chance of killing a good bull every few years or a 0.1% chance of killing a raghorn every year.  Those are BS numbers, but I really am curious how many people support a draw system that is acutally based on the amount of available animals and promotes good bull composition...like some other states do.

[Special T]

Coastal  that is because WDFW is all about the $$$ most people don't make the connection.... Which I believe they have not gone to a special Permit or closed season for the Colokum herd.

[bobcat]

It is not pertinant to this discusion, but I find it interesting that on the westside...if WDFW estimates a GMU to have X amount of branched bulls...they will sell an unlimited amount of branched bull tags for archery, rifle, muzzle loader.  I know some people love the opportunity to hunt elk every year, but is that really sound management.  Would state hunters rather have a 30% chance of killing a good bull every few years or a 0.1% chance of killing a raghorn every year.  Those are BS numbers, but I really am curious how many people support a draw system that is acutally based on the amount of available animals and promotes good bull composition...like some other states do.

This is what I've always said. We need permit only hunting, otherwise they are not managing our deer and elk herds. How can they just let the harvest be totally random? It boggles my mind. I could see it 30 years ago when there was a lot more area to hunt and less people hunting. To me it's ridiculous to sell unlimited numbers of tags with no control on how many are hunting and where they are hunting. Sure it's convenient, to just buy a tag and pretty much hunt anywhere every year, but when I go hunting I would like to see more animals than hunters. And this is not possible in this state with our current so called "management" by the WDFW.

[Coastal_native]

colockumelk,

disregard the first part of my last post, I understand now that your opinion was that they are not hunting with regulations and they probably don't have management goals...right?

I re read what I posted and it sounded argumentative.  I'm probably tyring to be too diplomatic...I don't know the Yakima situation and I don't want to offend any fellow Natives.  I also don't want to resort to arguing against you just because I am also Native...you could be right.

[Coastal_native]

Very good question JimmyHoffa, but not sure I know the answer.

Obviously we put an emphasis on learning the language, dance, art, wood carving/canoe making, etc...but as far as traditional hunting methods go...no I don't think so.  There was a movement a few years ago to try to teach the new generation about preserving meat in the traditional way (drying meat), but it never materialized, mainly because there are fewer and fewer youngsters interested in hunting it seems.  Some of the older traditional hunters believe in hunting spikes and cows as opposed to trophies, but most hunters will shoot the first bull they see.  Some also believe there is an appropriate time of year to hunt cows vs. bulls. (don't disturb elk during the breading season, don't shoot cows when they are far along in pregnancy).

Although it would be interesting to learn, I personally think teaching and/or practicing traditional hunting methods would be a PR nightmare...I'm not sure environmental groups would want to see elk being snared, speared, or driven into a pit of stakes...you know what I mean?  As far as mirroring the states rules...I think the idea is to make sure the combination of modern technology and liberal bag limits doesn't lead to over harvesting.  Like I said in a previous post, natives are not entirely accustomed to manageing wildlife in the modern sense.  However, we do know that we have a shared and limited resource and harvest monitoring is important to conservation.  I think that might be some of the logic behind mirroring state regulations. 

I do agree with you, we are risking the loss of another piece of our culture.

[Special T]

I think it is interesting that not one of the methods for hunting you mentioned was Archery.     Many people don't ralize how different the tribes from east to west are/were... And that the main source of food was the sound and on the E side game with some salmon...

[Curly]

It is not pertinent to this discussion, but I find it interesting that on the westside...if WDFW estimates a GMU to have X amount of branched bulls...they will sell an unlimited amount of branched bull tags for archery, rifle, muzzle loader.  I know some people love the opportunity to hunt elk every year, but is that really sound management.  Would state hunters rather have a 30% chance of killing a good bull every few years or a 0.1% chance of killing a raghorn every year.  Those are BS numbers, but I really am curious how many people support a draw system that is actually based on the amount of available animals and promotes good bull composition...like some other states do.

This is what I've always said. We need permit only hunting, otherwise they are not managing our deer and elk herds. How can they just let the harvest be totally random? It boggles my mind. I could see it 30 years ago when there was a lot more area to hunt and less people hunting. To me it's ridiculous to sell unlimited numbers of tags with no control on how many are hunting and where they are hunting. Sure it's convenient, to just buy a tag and pretty much hunt anywhere every year, but when I go hunting I would like to see more animals than hunters. And this is not possible in this state with our current so called "management" by the WDFW.

Yep.  It is a shame that WDFW caves to the wishes of the majority of hunters in the state instead of actually managing the herds by using permit only as a method.  True spike will probably help slightly in the Colockum, but I bet eventually they will need to shut it down altogether or try permit only.  Permit only for the entire state would probably be the best way to manage the elk herds, but hunters refuse to accept that idea.......

[WSU]

First of all WSU I appoligize.  After re-reading that post I realize I sound like a jerk.  So sorry, I didn't mean to come of that way.  Oh and BTW I AM smarter than the Wildlife Bio's   Seriously who sounded smarter in that article me or the WDFW?

According to the WDFW there were a FEW elk east of the Cascades.  There was a Selkirk herd, and a Blue Mountain Herd.  Both most likely killed off by settlers or because of habitat.  No one knows for sure.  As far as a Yakima and Colockum herd there was none until the early 1900's when we planted them.  Any elk that wandered east of the PCT is believed to have come  from the West side as elk often migrate great distances.  When settlers arrived here they did not report any elk.  Deer but no elk.  According to tribal history they did NOT hunt elk.  As they would have to travel too far to find elk.  They did HOWEVER, trade for elk meat.  Lewis and Clark also did not see elk since leaving Idaho until they got West of the PCT.  If you would like I can dig those sources.

To be honest though in what we are talking about none of the above info matters at all.  I do realize how hard legally it would be to do anything.  And we would probably fail.  Unless we undertook a huge PR campaign and got the true word out instead of a "White Guilt" version from the other side I think it could and would happen.  But what else should we do WSU??  The Yakama's have shown themselves to not give a damn about elk or deer or responsible wildlife managment.  How much has American's sacrificed as far as more and more restrictions?  What has the other side given up??

I just want some equality.  If the Treaty is such a big deal to the Yakamas then why do they allow their members to drink alcohol?  Something needs to be done and soon before that herd dissapears.  You are correct that we kill far more "bulls" than the Yakams do.  Although this gap gets narrower every year.  In 2006 the WDFW estimated that they kill 40 branch bulls a year.  Whitefoot has even admitted that since then especially in the last few years the amount of tribal hunters up there has grown dramatically so this number is probably even higher.  I am going to do all that I can to save this herd and want permit only really bad and this is not a secret.  We are going to do our part we just want the other side to do theirs.  You sound like a very intelligent person and have definately made me think and given me a run for my money.  What would you suggest we do.?

I'm serious.  I understand your points as far as the legal issue.  We probably wont agree on some of this stuff.  But doesn't mean we can't be on the same side.  What course of action do you think would be best to take?  The Colockum WILL go to permit only soon.  That is a 100% guarantee.  But it wont matter if the Tribes are not willing to play ball and do their part as well.   6x6 you are my newest best friend.  You make some awsome points.  And you can call in bulls for me anytime

No sweat.  I do agree with a lot of what you are saying as well.  The bottom line is that both sides likely need to do a better job managing the resource.  I personally was disgusted watching the colockum modern firearm fiasco.  Elk running everywhere with their tongues hanging out, game wardens driving everywhere as fast as they could go to try to cover all the violations, etc.  When I was there, there was a gamey with a big 6x6 bull in his rig that he had recovered.  Turns out one of the branch bull tag holders shot it, and a bigger bull walked out so he shot it too.  Also, look at all the stories about people who are unable to count points and kill non-true spikes.  The fact is we, as hunters and sportsmen, have no room to get on our high horse about the colockum.  The herd is in trouble because we mismanaged it to the point it is now.  And I agree, true-spike may not work.  It seems that it might have a chance working if we, collectively, could be responsible enough to identify exactly what it is we are shooting, but that doesn't appear to be the case. 

Also, I'd like to see the info that lays out historical elk ranges.  Everything I've seen says they were there, but I haven't read much detail beyond that. 

[colockumelk]

WSU that has been my main focus as well.  We need to clean up our house before we go around cleaning other peoples houses up.  Once we have our stuff straight then start pointing fingers.  But I do understand where alot of people are coming from.  We have been extremely limited in our hunting and seasons in the Colockum and the Yakamas kill more and more every year. Here is how that whole thing started according to the WDFW bios.

Apparantly before 2001 or so only a couple of Yakamas hunted the Colockum and only took a couple of bulls.  So no big deal.  But then the WDFW started that Klickitat Meadows special permit which is on the reservation.  There was a letter written to the editor of the Yakima Herald Republic from members of the Yakama Tribe.  It basically said if the WDFW goes through with this few permits allowing elk harvest on the reservation that they would go to the Colockum and start killing our bulls.  Well the WDFW went with the hunt anyways and therefore Yakamas started hunting the Colockum.  Still it wasn't a whole lot of members that did it.  But like all good hunting spots word got around.  So every year more and more Yakamas started hunting the Colockum.  Whitefoot has even said the numbers have increased dramatically over the last few years.  So now it is now having a noticable impact on that herd.  In 2006 it was estimated that 40 bulls a year were taken by the Yakamas.  Since then this number is definately alot higher since according to the Game Wardens and Yakamas I've talked to alot more Yakamas hunt it now. 

If I had it my way it would go to permit only for bulls and cows.  This way the WDFW could scientifically and mathematically control the amount of bulls and cows every year so the herd could begin to grow and more importantly start increase the bull to cow ratio.  I would also close alot of the spur roads therefore actually giving the elk a place to escape to.  This would also cut down on poaching.  Also the WDFW might not be able to do a whole lot about tribal harvest but closing roads will definately limit the amount of tribal harvest.  Also there shouldn't be an open road withing 2 miles of the Coffin Game Refuge.  I would also cut down on cattle grazing so that theres more food for the elk to eat.  Once we have done our part and if the herds are still not doing what they should then go to the Yakamas and start putting political pressure on them to help out.  At the very least force them to submit harvest reports. 

I've read other tribal regs and they actually have limits.  Many also submit harvest data reports and do surveys and help the WDFW with research and game managment.  I wonder why it is that the Yakamas don't do ANYTHING???

Oh as far as elk living in the Kittitas and Yakima Valleys:  There isnt much.  If you go to the WDFW site and look up the Colockum Elk herd 2006 research study and look up the history of the herd it talks a little bit about it.  Basically says there wasn't a "herd" per-say but some elk drifted back and forth across the PCT.  They do mention the cave drawings on the bluffs of the Columbia.  If you read about Lewis and Clark when he drifts through the area (farther south I think) they don't talk about elk from Idaho until they get towards the coast.  I also looked up some stuff about the Yakama's history and nothing talks about hunting elk.  But as far as one difinitive study there isn't any. 

colockumelk,

disregard the first part of my last post, I understand now that your opinion was that they are not hunting with regulations and they probably don't have management goals...right?

I re read what I posted and it sounded argumentative.  I'm probably tyring to be too diplomatic...I don't know the Yakima situation and I don't want to offend any fellow Natives.  I also don't want to resort to arguing against you just because I am also Native...you could be right.

coastal you didn't sound combative at all.  You had some good points.  You just came off as like you were asking questions.  I don't know what their goals are or if they have any.  Unlike many tribes in WA like Ii've mentioned before the Yakama's have not beeen willing to cooperate with the WDFW when it comes to big game.  They refuse to set responsible limits and have flat out REFUSED to conduct harvest data or help out in big game managment in any way.  They have also not tried to police their own.  Which is why many on here are getting upset.  I do not know why they are like this.

But to be fair to the Yakamas I don't know how much or how hard the WDFW or our state has pushed the Yakamas to do any of this stuff.  It often seems with the WDFW that they really don't care as long as they sell tags.  So who knows maybe if some political pressure was put on them they would help out more.    This is why we come here to debate.  Mostly its about raising awareness. 

[vandeman17]

I have been trying to keep up on this thread as this has always been a topic that both frustrates me but also makes me want to know more. It seems like every time I check, there has been 5 more responses so I apologize if I am repeating what somebody else asked. My question is this, are the Yakama's trophy hunting or meat hunting? I mean, why do they feel it necessary to go in and shoot the big branch antlered bulls if they are just trying to provide for their families? Wouldn't it make more sense, for both the elk and for relations between the two sides, to fill their tags with cows? Not only would it be a way to help the bull to cow ratio but it would also be a step in the right direction showing that they actually do care about the overall health of the heard. 

[Grouse Hunter]

They shoot the big bulls because the heads are worth money.

[runamuk]

I have been trying to keep up on this thread as this has always been a topic that both frustrates me but also makes me want to know more. It seems like every time I check, there has been 5 more responses so I apologize if I am repeating what somebody else asked. My question is this, are the Yakama's trophy hunting or meat hunting? I mean, why do they feel it necessary to go in and shoot the big branch antlered bulls if they are just trying to provide for their families? Wouldn't it make more sense, for both the elk and for relations between the two sides, to fill their tags with cows? Not only would it be a way to help the bull to cow ratio but it would also be a step in the right direction showing that they actually do care about the overall health of the heard. 

Its sort of a matter of both....Colockum mentions the permit hunt that set the trophy bull slaughter in motion

There was a letter written to the editor of the Yakima Herald Republic from members of the Yakama Tribe.  It basically said if the WDFW goes through with this few permits allowing elk harvest on the reservation that they would go to the Colockum and start killing our bulls.  Well the WDFW went with the hunt anyways and therefore Yakamas started hunting the Colockum.  Still it wasn't a whole lot of members that did it.  But like all good hunting spots word got around.  So every year more and more Yakamas started hunting the Colockum.  Whitefoot has even said the numbers have increased dramatically over the last few years.  So now it is now having a noticable impact on that herd.  In 2006 it was estimated that 40 bulls a year were taken by the Yakamas.  Since then this number is definately alot higher since according to the Game Wardens and Yakamas I've talked to alot more Yakamas hunt it now.

.....basically there are a few who are taking trophies to rub in our faces as far as I can tell.  And I hear they show up with nice fresh ones at the show every year  not sure how that puts meat on the table but it likely puffs up an ego or two  This herd seems to be catching the brunt of stupidity on both sides of the fence and it all is really more about money and power than herd health at this point. 

[monster_bull]

 colockumelk - i would like to thank you for you articles being put in the paper.... lets all thank him for advertising the colockum to every reader that pics up the paper. thank you for showing the rest of the Rez were it is... its half you fault for putting that crap in the paper. all they had to do is google it. Now instead of a hand full of yakamas hunting the colockum you got a bunch more.. so thank you so much