I was just curious...hope I don't offend anyone

[agchawk]

  I've been thinking about this for a bit and thought I'd throw it out there.

  Before I do, I want to stress that I am NOT BASHING anyone here. I just have some feelings toward live trapping and a few questions relating to same.

  I hunt and fish as often as possible and have been doing so for as long as I can remember. However, I have a real tough time allowing ANYTHING to suffer. I almost always catch and release while fishing (Steelhead being the exception) and have passed up more shots than I could possibly count over the years while hunting because I didn't feel comfortable that it would lead to a quick kill.

  When I see the pics of the various animals caught in the live traps it really bothers me. AGAIN, this is NO KNOCK on the folks here that do it. It's legal, it's a way of life for them, and I applaud them for following thier ambition(s). Heck, I don't bad mouth my friends and family that chose to keep the fish they catch when they are out fishing with me so why would I badmouth trappers? We all love and share the great outdoors...we just view things a little differently at times.

  I was curious, for you folks that actually do this regularly, did it ever bother you and how did you get past it? Seriously, I've been wondering about this for some time now. Heck, I hunt coyotes and shoot them every chance I get. However, when I wound one it upsets me to no end. Anyone else feel this way?

  Thanks guys/gals for putting up with what some might view as a stupid question/post. I just thought I'd see what you all thought.

 

[agchawk]

 I purposely started a seperate thread on this. I didn't want to threadjack someone else's thread. They are proud of what they do and I certainly do not want to screw a thread up by asking a question that might be contrary toward thier pursuit.

[bobcat]

I think it's a good question. I feel the same way and don't know that I could be a trapper. I'll be interested to read the replies on this thread, if there are any.

[runamuk]

I think this is a really good and honest question.....I know I have a set of beliefs about traps and trapping that was created through lack of information and I inherently love all animals so hate to see anything suffer I totally get where you are coming from and actually look forward to the responses.  All the recent pics and video and explanations on trapping have given me a bunch to think about.....we have some really awesome people on this site.

[jackelope]

Mixed feelings here.
I don't mind the coyotes and other predators and nuisance animals like beavers. I grew up back east and trapped woodchucks and muskrats with my grandfather as a kid. I don't  like seeing those pronghorn and deer in those traps, I will say that. I don't know how there could be no damage done to them, maybe I just don't know how it works all around so maybe there really is no damage done but I sure gotta wonder.

[Kain]

I am a complete amateur and have not trapped anything so far but here is my opinion.  I think it is a fair question but I also think it is a lot of assumption.  Traps like conibears are instant kill traps killing just as fast as any other method used by hunters.  They are basically giant rat traps.  Drowning sets and some snares kill very quickly by suffocation.  I dont think you can really consider cage trapping causing suffering unless the animals was left in there for days which is against the law.  A cage trapped animal is release unharmed or dispatch with very humane methods. So that really just leaves foot hold traps where most people perceive suffering.  I will leave it to more experienced trappers to explain how, with proper use, these traps are not the "torture devices" that people think they are.   And with newer designs, like laminating, rubber padding, offset jaws, are even more humane.

[huntinglonewolf]

Mixed feelings here.
I don't mind the coyotes and other predators and nuisance animals like beavers. I grew up back east and trapped woodchucks and muskrats with my grandfather as a kid. I don't  like seeing those pronghorn and deer in those traps, I will say that. I don't know how there could be no damage done to them, maybe I just don't know how it works all around so maybe there really is no damage done but I sure gotta wonder.

There was no damage at all to any deer or antolope, The traps are laminated and not even a scratch. I really truely belive that if people have a problem with seeing animals in traps or trapping then ask your self why you are looking at a trapping forum.

[runamuk]

Mixed feelings here.
I don't mind the coyotes and other predators and nuisance animals like beavers. I grew up back east and trapped woodchucks and muskrats with my grandfather as a kid. I don't  like seeing those pronghorn and deer in those traps, I will say that. I don't know how there could be no damage done to them, maybe I just don't know how it works all around so maybe there really is no damage done but I sure gotta wonder.

There was no damage at all to any deer or antolope, The traps are laminated and not even a scratch. I really truely belive that if people have a problem with seeing animals in traps or trapping then ask your self why you are looking at a trapping forum.

I'm here because I want to learn and formulate opinions based on solid information and not just propaganda if I avoided everything I find uncomfortable my life would be sort of dull and meaningless, challenging myself with my own beliefs and views is just something I do periodically, really glad I did otherwise I still would not be hunting or owning guns.....

[Kain]

Mixed feelings here.
I don't mind the coyotes and other predators and nuisance animals like beavers. I grew up back east and trapped woodchucks and muskrats with my grandfather as a kid. I don't  like seeing those pronghorn and deer in those traps, I will say that. I don't know how there could be no damage done to them, maybe I just don't know how it works all around so maybe there really is no damage done but I sure gotta wonder.

There was no damage at all to any deer or antolope, The traps are laminated and not even a scratch. I really truely belive that if people have a problem with seeing animals in traps or trapping then ask your self why you are looking at a trapping forum.

I dont think most on this site have problem with seeing animals in traps.  You have to also remember that this state does not allow foothold traps without a permit so they might not have expected to see other forms of trapping on this site.  Educating them on HOW the traps are designed to not cause damage would be better than berating them for asking honest questions.

[Lowedog]

I really truely belive that if people have a problem with seeing animals in traps or trapping then ask your self why you are looking at a trapping forum.

I don't know about the others here but when I visit a topic on this site I usually do it by reading through the topics that are current on the right.  I click on the ones that sound interesting to me.  I don't usually choose a forum to view.  

I think this is a very good question.  

[jackelope]

Mixed feelings here.
I don't mind the coyotes and other predators and nuisance animals like beavers. I grew up back east and trapped woodchucks and muskrats with my grandfather as a kid. I don't  like seeing those pronghorn and deer in those traps, I will say that. I don't know how there could be no damage done to them, maybe I just don't know how it works all around so maybe there really is no damage done but I sure gotta wonder.

There was no damage at all to any deer or antolope, The traps are laminated and not even a scratch. I really truely belive that if people have a problem with seeing animals in traps or trapping then ask your self why you are looking at a trapping forum.

With all due respect, sir...read my post. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Like I said, I really don't know.

[jackelope]

p.s. I read all of the forums, I am an admin of the site. It comes with the job.
 

[rasbo]

well here's my point of view,anything that gets caught stresses some,fish also,hook in your mouth being dragged in then clubbed,,Shoot an animal hunting they don't always die right away,so stress there..But a leg hold trap is stress at first because they lose their freedom,then they are let go or put down.I use a 22 to the brain on those I trap..watch this video,,biologist use these traps..and relocate many species of animals.There is always some stress involved in any game pursuits..animals trapped are put down fast.they don't run away and die, its immediate
Destroying the Myth

[GoldTip]

I grew up helping my Uncle run his trap line in Montana.  My Uncle trapped everything from Lynx to wolverine to marten to coyotes to beavers and Muskrats and most anything else which was legal.  Mostly I was bait/trap carrier and dead animal carrier whenever we trapped something.  Neck snares and connibear traps really should be set in a correct manner which causes instant or damn quick death to whatever enters them.  Foothold traps, yep, they cause harm and the animal does some suffering, just isn't any two ways around it.  You dispatch the animal quickly and as humanely as possible once you check the trap and that's that.  I never ever felt bad for anyone of the animals, that was how my Uncle made winter money and that was just fact of life.   I was always kind of excited to see what we caught.  There is a whole lot more to setting a trap than most would think.  I understand how some may feel badly for an animal in a foothold trap, not sure how to tell the person to work around that or even if I should tell them that.  It's just one of those parts of life that if you grow up around it, you just don't have the same feelings about it that maybe someone who didn't grow up around it does.

I also know that there are many ways to set a foothold trap that would never trap a deer or and elk or an antelope or any ungulate.  I wouldn't be able to do it I am sure, but in the several years I helped my Uncle, I do not recall anything trapped that the trap wasn't set for.

[tlbradford]

I'm glad to see this topic pop up, because I believe this should be an open and honest discussion, and can be used as a learning experience.  I debated whether or not to remove some photos in the trapping forum, simply due to the fact that they can be used out of context by the antis.  However, I decided against it because I don't believe you should hide the somewhat uglier side of any activity.  These animals were not harmed and it does happen.  Maybe with more discussion the photos might be removed, but for now we'll see how it goes.  To me the more education the better.

Jackelope...Humane traps are nearly foolproof in preventing harm to the animals.  If a trap is not causing an animal pain than they will rarely do anything to harm themselves.

aghawk...To answer your question, I think it is your upbringing and what you have been exposed to in life.  I grew up on a small farm where we butchered chickens and the occasional livestock animal.  You build up a tolerance for the violence that ends an animals life, because they are there for food and that is there purpose.  It is not unlike hunting.  I remember the first animal I shot.  It was a rabbit with a .22.  I struggled with taking the shot for about 20 seconds because it was sitting there looking at me.  I brought the rifle up, lowered it, thought about what I was going to do, realized that I was going to eat it and there was nothing morally wrong with what I was doing, raised the rifle again and shot.  I then skinned it, cleaned it, and helped cook it.  I have had no hesitation shooting an animal since, and always strive for a perfect shot and humane and quick kill.  I don't know that anyone "likes" the moment of the kill.  It is something you steel yourself to do and over time it gets easier.

I have intentionally exposed my 4 year old to skinning coyotes and big game, cleaning turkeys (which usually smell pretty bad) and other birds.  I take the time to explain the hunt to her and that we will eat it later.  We make it a scientific and I will show her the organs, let her touch the fur, feathers, or hide.  We will go online and find videos of the animals in the wild, and we will talk about going and looking at them in the woods.

I disagree with huntinglonewolf in the fact that I believe everyone should take the time to educate themselves on other hunting pursuits, not ignore them and attempt to label them without knowledge of what they entail.  Whether it be trapping, hound hunting, baiting, archery, or another activity.  The more you learn about it, than the better you are equipped to make an informed decision about it.

[Kain]

Smaller traps demonstrations on hands.  Of course some of the bigger traps would do damage to you so I wouldnt try it but these are used for smaller animals (the majority of fur bearers).  I would not say this doesnt hurt or cause stress to the animals but it is not going to cause bone crushing or amputating that some would have you believe.  This would probably bruise and may even cause light skin damage.  It is up to you whether you consider that suffering.

Coil Trap Misconceptions
Long Spring # 1 Trap misconceptions
My hand in a 1.75 Victor Coilspring trap

[agchawk]

huntinglonewolf- I look at all the forums just about every day. There is ALWAYS something to learn, I am curious by nature, love anything outdoors, and was curious as to what you do and how you do it. No offense meant by my questions, just being honest. I have no ill feelings toward you or your way of life. I just don't understand all aspects of it...and won't unless I ask questions.

runamuk- Great post. I feel the same.

jack- I hear yea. However, for some reason...at least with me...I can't get past it no matter what sort of animal it is.

tlbradford- I grew up in Pomeroy and we had chickens and rabbits. I slaughtered and help slaughter them for the freezer/dinner table as a youngester, have hunted since I was old enough to tag along with my father, and fish/hunt every chance I get now. I'm not sure it's from lack of exposure to it...in fact, I did things as a kid that I couldn't bring myself to do now. Great post though and I agree with a lot of what you expressed. This was exactly why I started this thread in the first place.

  Honestly, I think it may stem from one incident at a teenager. I drew a doe tag when I was about 14 or 15 years old. My brother and I skipped school one morning to go fill that tag. In our haste to get out of the house before our parents found out we were not going to school I forgot to bring extra shells. That left me with three in my mag and nothing more.
  We headed outside of Pomeroy and immediately found a group of does/fawns feeding out in a CRP field. We sat there, picked out the biggest dry doe in the group and prepared to take her down. Well, they winded us right before I shot and took off across the field. I stood up, took an off-handed shot, and hit her high in the front shoulder. She dumped over, jumped up, and headed for a large patch of brush in a small eyebrow. I took another running shot and missed which left me with one last round.
  I snuck around the edge of the field and located her in the buckbrush. However, because of all the excitement, adreneline, and my being out of breathe, I shot a little low and she took off around a small knoll and into a neighboring draw. I told my brother to get back to the truck and see if there were any more rounds in the truck and that I would track her and see if I could keep tabs on her.
  I immediately found blood on a small game trail so I started tracking. About 10 feet further I found what looked like chewed up asparagus...and immediately knew that she was gut-shot. I continued tracking her until I caught up to her standing next to small stream. Her intestines where hanging out and every time she took a step she would get her hind legs entangled in them and slowly disembowel herself (My last shot had indeed hit low, splitting her belly and spilling her guts). I had no choice....I sat down and watched her until she was too weak to run any further. I then took out my knife, walked up to her, and slit her throat.
  I felt so bad, so disheartened, while I watched her weaken that I honestly didn't hunt again for two years. Honestly, it bothers me writing this up.
   I do not know if this one incident is behind my feelings on leg traps but I'm sure it doesn't help much...LOL.

   (FYI: I am no bleeding heart liberal and will never give up hunting and fishing. You can call me a lot of things but them's fighting words!   )

   Thanks for the responses everyone. This is what I was lookin' for. You can never be "too informed" in my opinion and I appreciate everyone's input.

[agchawk]

Thanks Kain....very interesting!

Oh yea, tlbradford: I do the same thing with my 7 year old. He is out with me all the time and I make sure he sees all aspects of my passion/pursuit(s). He has no issue with any of it thus far and loves doing anything outdoors with dad. In fact, he calls himself my "hardcore outdoors boy!" 

[boneaddict]

I think its a great discussion.  I also enjoyed the trapping pics and vids that were posted.   My grandfather used to spend the winter in the Pasayten and run traplines.  Times were tough, you even ate what you caught.   i love trapping.  Even get several publications in the mail, and they have no problem showing trapped pics.    I welcome them on the fourm as long as they are tasteful.

[huntinglonewolf]

What is it you would like to know?

[boneaddict]

Thats going to keep you busy.

[rasbo]

Thats going to keep you busy.

[dirty24d]

I have a lazy question.. and i call it lazy cuz i could probably look it up in the regs.. 

What are considered legal traps in the state of washington and what are the illegal traps in washington. And what does one need to do to acquire a trapping license and those of you that are licensed do you feel the requriements were adequate.


And for the record I am all for trapping as long as the animal does not suffer.   

Great videos kain!!!

[Kain]

There are a few other videos on Youtube about releasing animals and guys putting their hands in traps.  Even a guy that sticks his arm in a bear trap.  
Glad someone made the videos so I dont ever have to try that.    

Got to take the course to get a license.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/huntered/classes/trapping.php

Here are the season and rules.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00769/wdfw00769.pdf

The course will teach you about the different kinds of  fur bearing animals, some fur handling, types of traps, and which are legal but wont teach you how to trap or be a trapper.  That is where I am.  No budget for traps and no actual experience or teacher to learn from.  Books, internet and videos are going to have to do for now.  

[grundy53]

I'm all for trapping and love to see all of the pictures.

[dirty24d]

So what the heck kind of traps are we allowed to use in this state? all cage and box traps? No visible meat within 30 feet?  so scents only??

[Kain]

So what the heck kind of traps are we allowed to use in this state? all cage and box traps? No visible meat within 30 feet?  so scents only??

Yep just cage traps, colony traps and rat traps (which are OK for weasels).  You can use meat or non edible parts of game animals as long as they are not visible from the air.

[Humptulips]

So a couple of questions here. First what can we use in WA? For fur trapping we can use any trap that doesn't grasp the animal. This being cage traps which include killing traps like colony traps. Mostly though were talking box traps and suit case type beaver traps. Mouse and rat traps are exempt. We can also get a special permit to use padded foothold traps, conibears set under water and foot snares. You can only apply for a permit when an animal problem exists and you have to have tried an alternative and been unsuccessful. These permits are site specific and good for 30 days.
Now the cruelty issue. I really don't think as a rule cage traps are cruel. I do have some reservations about the suitcase type beaver traps but they are the only thing we are allowed to use.
What the WSTA has proposed and is working for is the adoption of Best Management Practises as set forth by The Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies http://www.fishwildlife.org/furbearer_resources.html  and The Canadian Humane Trapping Standards http://www.caht.ca/caht/cahttrd.jsp as set forth by the Canadian Association for Humane Trapping.
Don't know anything about that?
In 1991 the Canadian government signed an agreement with the European Union to abolish foottraps and do research as to the most humane traps available. Since then they have spent millions of dollars testing traps to determine the most humane. As standards have been written and traps tested their use has been mandated and other traps have been phased out. These are the most humane traps but there is a problem in that they are instant kill traps and do not allow for release of non-targets and can be dangerous to the trapper and the public. Fine for wilderness. There are also foot snares allowed for animals that cannot be caught in instant kill traps.
 An interesting side note, fox and mink were exempted from this agreement because the European Union actually had fox and mink and while they wanted to force North America to abolish the foot hold trap they didn't want to be affected themselves.
The United State's did not sign on to this agreement but signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the European Union in I think 1993. We basically agreed to test traps as to humanness and effectiveness and determine the most humane and effective types of traps. The traps that were the best are set forth in Best Management Practices. The testing is on going so if something comes along better it could eclipse what is currently being used. Washington was at the forfront of the testing when Initiative-713 passed and our work ground to a halt.
These are the only scientific tests done on traps to determine humanness and we would like to adopt the results of those tests. We would like to adopt both standards because the Canadians have done the work on instant kill traps and the U.S. has done the work on footholds and are working on snares. We could have the best of both worlds and after all isn't doing the best for the animal what we are all looking for?
When you shoot and animal while hunting often times it does not die instantly so we have to determine for our selves an acceptable standard. How long is too long for it to die? Two minutes? That is the standard set for instant kill traps.
Restraining traps are different. The animal is in the trap for up to 24 hours so we must concern ourselves with  the comfort of the animal in the trap. That is what the standards have attempted to do by quantifying the amount of injury sustained by the animal. Broken bones, lacerations or severe bruising would disqualify a trap.
In the past there has been some practises that would give anyone pause but with the new, modern traps I have no qualms about trapping.

[Kain]

Big Cat Trappin

Little Pine Coyote **Released** Trapping Hunting

[dirty24d]

Well those explanations satisfy my questions. I'm pro trapping for sure.  And may look into a license for next year. It would be really cool if some of our exerienced members were willing to do ride alongs ( 1 day) shadowing to see how they handle situations and proper release techniques where applicable. 


Thats prob a lot to ask but would be cool even if we got a bunch of us to meet somewhere and just do field exercises on the basics..   


Thanks guys !!!

[Machias]

I used to trap ALOT, next to chasing bears and whitetails during the rut, I looked forward to trapping more than anything.  Scouting and reading sign, preparing the traps (which is a fair amount of work).  I had to gather walnuts, cut the hulls off and boil my traps with the walnut hulls to dye and rust proof the traps.  I had to collect scat from fox, bobcat and yotes for sets.  Then once you set traps you have to check them every single day, no matter the weather, no matter how you feel.  Usually checked traps before daylight, you didn't want Johnny Sneakum stealing your fur and your traps.  You could walk up and look at 95% of my sets and unless you were a trapper would have no clue they were there.  All those years of tapping I never once caught a dog, cat  or any animal I wasn't targeting, except the first year I set a trap, actually one of my very first sets ever, I caught a great horned owl.  He was released and none too happy.  I made a real novice set, half a cottontail set above a #2 trap.  Serious rookie mistake.  After that I got some really good books.  In my opinion best book for new trappers is S. Stanley Hawbaker's "Trapping North American Fur Bearers".  I never set traps in areas close to town or near farms.  Some of it was luck, but I'm very proud of the fact I never caught none targeted animal. Most of the fox I trapped were sleeping when I got back to check my trap.  Coon, muskrat and beaver were all set to drown and be out of sight quickly.

[Kain]

 

Machias, Ill check out the book thanks for the suggestion.  Did you ever try to convert your knowledge/skills to the new trap rules.  If so how easy/hard was it?  The reason I ask is that most of these books are all about traps we cannot use here.  It might be easy for an experienced trapper to transfer and adapt his knowledge but what about a newbie?

[Hannibal]

there is no suffering in a cage trap,,,,,,   



Most of the time the targeted animal is curled up and sleeping.....
If I capture a cat an let it out of the cage without shaking the trap first,,,,that cat will come back for a "safe"  FREE MEAL THE FOLLOWING DAY......

Mink are the same way,,,,,One year I trapped a female mink 3 times before I moved the cage....
3 times,,,,,,,hum,,,,,pretty selecting means of Harvest if you ask me,,,,

I read earlier about waiting to take a shot,,,,,ect, ect,,,,,,,There is still no guaranty for that "perfect" shot.....

My version of kains video using bigger traps,,,,closed on me hand while stabilizing it ,,,,,#5 double long spring,,,, probably the biggest trap you will see commonly used,,,,,,,,

I took the time to photo,,,,,instead of rushing to get it off,,,,No damage,,,,,,

[Machias]

Machias, Ill check out the book thanks for the suggestion.  Did you ever try to convert your knowledge/skills to the new trap rules.  If so how easy/hard was it?  The reason I ask is that most of these books are all about traps we cannot use here.  It might be easy for an experienced trapper to transfer and adapt his knowledge but what about a newbie?

The book is still very good because it covers the most important aspect of trapping, location and making sets.  Even a new person would learn ALOT from the old trapping books.  I have several, this one was one of my favorite.

[Humptulips]

If you still have questions about trapping you might check out FAQs on watrappers.com. Answers for any non-trappers out there that are curious about trapping.