Cougar hunting by Mulehunter

[JackOfAllTrades]

So is there a way that permit holders can make "friends" with hound hunters or do they just resort to guides to hunt with? I'm kinda curious about the stats about how all these non hound owners hunt the cougars.... I would imagine if i had hounds i would probably throw it out to every one i knew to put in for permits....

Non hound owners can put in for permit and have other people with hounds "guide" them.  It is a little unfair to dog owners who legitametly apply because they are the ones putting in all the time with the dogs, training, care, expenses, etc.. Maybe that permit holder doesnt have:truck, snowmobile, money for gas, but they want to take advantage of a houndsman because this may be their only oppertunity to hunt that year. 

When those people draw they are most likely to go once, kill the first one they tree.  Then the houndsman is again out more oppertunities to train their dogs in persuit. That is the only time they can legally train their dogs on live game.  Maybe the permit holder doesnt want to spend anymore time or money to persue game?

Mulehunter

Scott, (may I call you Scott? I feel like through this thread I've gotten to know you as a person. Many of us have. Well, as much as possible from this highly enlightening bit of communication.)

But... !!!   I take offense to what you've said. Please realize that not all hunters that apply for the hound hunt -that don't have hounds, are not willing to pay expenses, put in an incredible amount of time, work with the houndsman to persue the goals of both parties for a fruitful harvest of a deer killer and yet give plenty of opportunity for the houndsman to work his/her dogs.  Would I shoot the first cat tree'd? I dunno! If it was a trophy, maybe. If a young one.. Hopefully not. I would rely on advice from the experienced houndsman.

Let me go back a year or so. I applied for a hound hunt tag for Okanogon and the NE unit. The tag you had this season. I did so on BearPaw's offer of a guided cat hunt for any Hunt-Wa member. A VERY GENEROUS OFFER!  When the initial tags were mailed out. I was frantic! I had a hound tag! Paper in my hand. Not just the internet/computer notice. No doggies and no snow machine though. Then the letter in the mail... There was a mistake in Olympia. duh..   Anyway... I was and would be quite willing to put in the time and considerable reimbursement to a houndsman to take a quality cat to save many deer. I recall that Machias even offered to assist. If needed, I'd have found a snow mobile to run.  I have to believe that there are many that apply for the hound hunt 'without owning dogs', that would do the same.

I am terribly sorry that you were not able to connect with the cat of your dreams on so many hunts this season, but also quite happy, as I bet you are, that you got several opportunities to run your dogs and even get some collar time for the pup.

I hope to shake your hand one day and maybe toss back a brew or two with ya some day.

-Steve

[villageidiot]

 To LRP, very good info.   Many yrs. ago I had hounds and religiously lost them since they hadn't even invented the beep beep type collars then.  Seems like more than half the time I headed home without my hounds and had to return multiple times after work looking for tracks, calling people, leaving coats out to attract them.  I lost 6 dogs one winter during minus 20 weather for two weeks.  I couldn't even sleep at night knowing my dogs were starving and freezing too.  They all had name tags and eventually they came into a farm that called me.  I thanked God many times over for getting all my very skinney, frozen dogs back.  I also lost a dog for 9 months once that basically turned wild and a coyote trapper caught her in a foot hold trap.  She still had my tag on and he called me.  She had been living in the wild, eating carion and was sceared to death of humans.  She lost her foot due to the trap but I kept her because I felt so sorry for her.  These new locating collars are totally essential for the hound owners to find their dogs and take them home to a good meal and warm dog house.  After I got one of those locating collars I never lost a dog more than 2 days again.  I even found a dog a guy stole and had hid the collar in his house and retagged the dog and built it a new dog house in his back yard.  The guy was ignorant and didn't know that collar he hid led me right to his house.  The tree switch is only useful if you can't hear the dogs.  Every hound owner recognizes the dogs voice and can tell in a split second if the dog is treeing.  Hound owners absolutely love their dogs as much as the city dwellers love their fu fu dogs.   The  hound owner knows what a dog is saying when they hear him on the track believe it or not.  They can translate the message to you as they hear the dogs voice.  I doubt many fu fu dog owners can interpret their dogs barks as good as a hound owner.  Unfortunately, Mulehunter can't hear so his only way of knowing what's going on is his GPS.  He has mastered the ability to track his dogs and return them home safely every hunt.
  Jack,   Just to let you know Mulehunter took a guy last winter that his kid got drawn and it was a disaster.  Mule met him in Ferry county, slept in a guys garage and the guy didn't have enough money to pay Mule anything so he did it for free.  Mule got on a lion on Sun. morning and the dogs were on the track when the guy had to leave because he had to get his kid back to his wife or lose custody.  That left Mule with his dogs out chaseing the lion.  He had to track the dogs down and take them home.  Mule lives 5 hrs. from this location so he was done since the tag owner had left.  Then the next weekend Mule headed over to meet the guy again and when he got there the guy called and aborted his plan to come meet Mule because his kid (that had the tag) started bawling and didn't want to go.  Mule got stood up and spent several hundred dollars trying to help some guy out so he could at least run his dogs.  Not knowing the tag owners is a real problem and the hound owner can't continue to keep his dogs trained without some sort of pursuit season.  If Mule hadn't taken this guy that stood him up he wouldn't have got to go at all because nobody else called him.  There is a very big problem here and it needs fixed. 

[Houndhunter]

jackofalltrade, and all you other non hound owners

thought you might like to hear why every houndman in the state has a problem with anyone being allowed to draw a hound permit. not sure if you are aware but the only chance we have to run and keep our dogs up legally  other than the hound permits is chasing raccoons. there are very few and limited areas to do this, and it can be extremly hard to find them on the eastside. these lion permits are the only chance we get at running our dogs on a cat if  anything at all. when we draw a permit we really dont care about the quota getting met, most hound guys have already killed a lion anyways (except you mule, sorry mean joke ), all we want to do is run our dogs. i know when i draw i will be hunting from dec till march running my dogs as often as i can. when a non hound guy draws he hunts what one or two times, or really until he trees a cat and hes done. especially now since you can hire a guide to go find a cat for you. look at bearpaw, guys have seen him from these sites and seen they dont even need to know dog owners to use the tag. they can buy there way through it, so it might be alright for guides like bearpaw because they get to run their dogs and make money but it leaves us real hound guys empty handed. i gaurentee people will see the threads posted from bearpaws clients alone and start putting in because they see they can buy a guide, its already 4-5 times harder to draw a tag then it use to be.  even if we had someone that didnt buy a guide we're still forced to run our dogs with someone other than ourselves if we want a chance use our dogs. you really think im going to trust some guy on the web that says he has a tag and wants to go hunt? i dont hunt with people i dont know and i sure as hell would not use my hounds with them. if we had other ways to run hounds in this state it wouldnt be a big deal but this is the only way to run your dogs on cats here plain and simple.

plus look at how many more cats wouldve been killed if non hound owners didnt shoot all the females, i heard of one killed that wieghed 60lbs! you might as well go pick up a kitten from the local humane society, run it up a tree and shoot it. you dont manage lion by killing more females than males, plus how many of those females killed had kittens nearby that wernt seen or even worse maybe were seen? there was a good reason that it was kept to hound owners only, but now i think its probably a lost cause and will never go back to the way it was. the wdfw makes more money when non hound guys put in as well, and thats prob why they changed the rule to begin with. i would love to see some pursuit only seasons for hound owners only, but thats not likely to happen either. just remember for us guys that own and train our hounds year round, have one opportunity to use our hounds on cats and these permits are it

sorry mule, didnt mean to thread jack just thought this needed to be explained

[bearpaw]

jackofalltrade, and all you other non hound owners

thought you might like to hear why every houndman in the state has a problem with anyone being allowed to draw a hound permit. not sure if you are aware but the only chance we have to run and keep our dogs up legally  other than the hound permits is chasing raccoons. there are very few and limited areas to do this, and it can be extremly hard to find them on the eastside. these lion permits are the only chance we get at running our dogs on a cat if  anything at all. when we draw a permit we really dont care about the quota getting met, most hound guys have already killed a lion anyways (except you mule, sorry mean joke ), all we want to do is run our dogs. i know when i draw i will be hunting from dec till march running my dogs as often as i can. when a non hound guy draws he hunts what one or two times, or really until he trees a cat and hes done. especially now since you can hire a guide to go find a cat for you. look at bearpaw, guys have seen him from these sites and seen they dont even need to know dog owners to use the tag. they can buy there way through it, so it might be alright for guides like bearpaw because they get to run their dogs and make money but it leaves us real hound guys empty handed. i gaurentee people will see the threads posted from bearpaws clients alone and start putting in because they see they can buy a guide, its already 4-5 times harder to draw a tag then it use to be.  even if we had someone that didnt buy a guide we're still forced to run our dogs with someone other than ourselves if we want a chance use our dogs. you really think im going to trust some guy on the web that says he has a tag and wants to go hunt? i dont hunt with people i dont know and i sure as hell would not use my hounds with them. if we had other ways to run hounds in this state it wouldnt be a big deal but this is the only way to run your dogs on cats here plain and simple.

plus look at how many more cats wouldve been killed if non hound owners didnt shoot all the females, i heard of one killed that wieghed 60lbs! you might as well go pick up a kitten from the local humane society, run it up a tree and shoot it. you dont manage lion by killing more females than males, plus how many of those females killed had kittens nearby that wernt seen or even worse maybe were seen? there was a good reason that it was kept to hound owners only, but now i think its probably a lost cause and will never go back to the way it was. the wdfw makes more money when non hound guys put in as well, and thats prob why they changed the rule to begin with. i would love to see some pursuit only seasons for hound owners only, but thats not likely to happen either. just remember for us guys that own and train our hounds year round, have one opportunity to use our hounds on cats and these permits are it

sorry mule, didnt mean to thread jack just thought this needed to be explained

I came on this thread to read mulehunter's most recent posts but I have a few replies to this:

First, so are you really saying I am not a real hound guy?   WTF?

Next, when it was only doggers getting tags, the females were shot by doggers, this year my hunters in Washington all passed numerous females to shoot a tom. My best guess it is the permit holders not going with a guide kill the most females. Don't be making claims about me that are false.

Rather than throw around this trash talk, get off your a$$, get organized with the right groups, and lobby the Commission for an open pursuit-only season. That is what will actually solve the problem if your main goal is to truly run your dogs. I have asked for some of the doggers to help support an open pursuit season. I had established some support for this in the Dept and no doggers want to take the time to help get a pursuit season. So my response is "Quit your bitching" you are getting back exactly as much as you have put into the issue! 

Next, it has taken the lobbying efforts of numerous sporting groups like SCI, HHC, and WFWC (these are mostly average sportsfolks not owning hounds) lobbying legislators to get these limited hound hunts going. Why should the average hunter not be allowed to apply for a permit?

Think about this... A dog does not get more food by biting the hand that feeds it!

This is the type of self centered attitude that helped hound hunting to get voted out by other hunters in the first place.        

[bearpaw]

Sorry for jacking your thread mulehunter. Please keep the photos and stories coming through the rest of your pursuit season for all to see.

Bearpaw, No worry. I love this Thread. Its good for everybody to understand how Houndmen feel about those Permit, Bio, Pursuit, Etc. Its good infomation right here and learn about how each person feel about it.

I need to come up spend time with ya for fun and go pursuit Cougar up your area since you have Permit.  It better not end up crash my truck like last year on Cindy Permit.  


Mulehunter  

mulehunter you are funny....  

You are definitely welcome to come over and hunt with Brian and I.  

Maybe this time I can get the other door... 

[Houndhunter]

for one im not one to get upset, so no need to act like an ass. real hound guy meaning my job is not a hunting guide, part of your job is running hounds something i would kill for. and where did i say you shot females? as far as not getting involved, ive wrote my letters despite only getting and auto e-mail as a response at best. i work full time and go to college full time so dont try to give me crap about getting off my butt and go loby, no one listens to a 20 year old but i still write lmy etters. as far as your sporting groups getting our permit season is bs, and you know that. if our wdfw didnt do anything people in those counties would have taken matter into there own hands and that what was the reason not because groups like sci and what not

what i dont like about guides, and im suprised your upset by this, is now people see that they can hire someone to get a lion. whats the need to find a houndsman when you can pay a guide, and guides are the only ones to benifit from it. and it will only make our draw odds worse, so more clients for you and less tags for houndsman. i know times aint easy and it would suprise me if you didnt take advantage of the situation, because some one else would. anyways dont go making assumptions about people you dont know. you have anything else to say bout me send it in a pm, i was just stating my views and views of other houndsman

[mulehunter]

Bearpaw,  pm sent.


Mulehunter.   

[bearpaw]

for one im not one to get upset, so no need to act like an ass. real hound guy meaning my job is not a hunting guide, part of your job is running hounds something i would kill for. and where did i say you shot females? as far as not getting involved, ive wrote my letters despite only getting and auto e-mail as a response at best. i work full time and go to college full time so dont try to give me crap about getting off my butt and go loby, no one listens to a 20 year old but i still write lmy etters. as far as your sporting groups getting our permit season is bs, and you know that. if our wdfw didnt do anything people in those counties would have taken matter into there own hands and that what was the reason not because groups like sci and what not

what i dont like about guides, and im suprised your upset by this, is now people see that they can hire someone to get a lion. whats the need to find a houndsman when you can pay a guide, and guides are the only ones to benifit from it. and it will only make our draw odds worse, so more clients for you and less tags for houndsman. i know times aint easy and it would suprise me if you didnt take advantage of the situation, because some one else would. anyways dont go making assumptions about people you dont know. you have anything else to say bout me send it in a pm, i was just stating my views and views of other houndsman

Let me remind you, you are the one who made the offensive comments, and I will reply in the thread in which you made those comments. Mostly, I did not apprecite your comment which seemed to imply that I am not a real hound guy just because I am a guide. Your words, not mine. And you basically just said it again. Let me be clear, I was hound hunting before you were ever concieved. I started guiding so I could afford to go hound hunting more often. That is exactly why I began guiding, so I could afford to hunt my dogs more.

People seem to assume that a guide gets into guiding for the money. For any guide who has stayed in business for any lenght of time nothing could be further from the truth. I guide because I love to hunt, I especially love hunting with hounds, I made far more money before I became a full-time guide.

I mentioned the groups who are most responsible for getting the public safety hunts started. This is a fact whether you know it or not. County Commissioners in the five counties also put a great deal of pressure on the legislators. It took a great deal of lobbying and work to get the permits in place and its upseting to see someone trashing the system that they had no involvement in getting established. We are lucky to have anything, when you get a chance, you need to thank those groups for their work.

You were the one who said that non-houndhunters were killing all the females. The fact remains, when only hound hunters were getting the tags, females were killed then too. Maybe I read too much into your comment, it sounded like you were blaming anyone who takes a non-hound owner hunting, for shooting all the females? If that was not your intent I will withdraw that critisism. If that is what you were saying, my comment stands.  

If you want to hunt your dogs more, support an open pursuit-only season statewide. That is the real answer to keeping your dogs trained.  

[mulehunter]

Seems like more people are enjoying houndhunting.  The only reason I brought it up because  I had bad experience with non- houndman the kid while ago, Like I said I will still go for some permitte who doesn't own hounds..  I hope they understand how much I put my time with dogs, gas, snowmobile, and all my experiences with all lions.

I am willing put my time effort to track lions for permit.  I can't help it but its better than staying home.

Would be nice if they would at least pay my gas and if I was lucky maybe get cc to cabelas or something?
just cause I am putting in all the real work all they have to do is show up and pull the trigger.

Mulehunter. 

[grundy53]

Seems like more people are enjoying houndhunting.  The only reason I brought it up because  I had bad experience with non- houndman the kid while ago, Like I said I will still go for some permitte who doesn't own hounds..  I hope they understand how much I put my time with dogs, gas, snowmobile, and all my experiences with all lions.

I am willing put my time effort to track lions for permit.  I can't help it but its better than staying home.

Would be nice if they would at least pay my gas and if I was lucky maybe get cc to cabelas or something?
just cause I am putting in all the real work all they have to do is show up and pull the trigger.

Mulehunter. 

That's how it should be. You should be reimbursed and compensated for your effort.

[Ray]

houndhunter,

It isn't exactly cheap to hire a guide and go hound hunting. I also have nothing against people who offer guiding services and run the dogs. This is an open season and there are a lot of people like myself who would love a chance of a lifetime on getting a nice cougar. I don't understand how someone like myself who would either team up with someone else who has dogs or otherwise hire a guide should not have the same opportunities as you for example. The requirement is to have the dogs as well as time and skill to hunt. This isn't something I would take for granted and if I have met the requirements then I should be allowed to hunt. Period. I would have to work many hours and save cash to either hire the guide or help pay my dues to someone who was KIND enough to offer their dogs up.

Considering the increasing rarity of hound hunting, I would expect those who partake in this sport to actually welcome ethical, responsible hunters who would like to experience it maybe once in their lifetime. This can do a big service to the sport itself by exposing others into this increasingly small activity.

[bearpaw]

houndhunter,

It isn't exactly cheap to hire a guide and go hound hunting. I also have nothing against people who offer guiding services and run the dogs. This is an open season and there are a lot of people like myself who would love a chance of a lifetime on getting a nice cougar. I don't understand how someone like myself who would either team up with someone else who has dogs or otherwise hire a guide should not have the same opportunities as you for example. The requirement is to have the dogs as well as time and skill to hunt. This isn't something I would take for granted and if I have met the requirements then I should be allowed to hunt. Period. I would have to work many hours and save cash to either hire the guide or help pay my dues to someone who was KIND enough to offer their dogs up.

Considering the increasing rarity of hound hunting, I would expect those who partake in this sport to actually welcome ethical, responsible hunters who would like to experience it maybe once in their lifetime. This can do a big service to the sport itself by exposing others into this increasingly small activity.

Very well said Ray, I have for years felt like the more people who were exposed to the sport of hound hunting, the better chance it has to survive. Mulehunter has done a great job of representing hound hunting for what it is, and many people on this forum can now see that hound hunting is a great sport. I have noticed some other threads on the forum like the one bashing waterfowl guides on the potholes, it's as if people can't stand to see any competition and want the sports all to themselves. Waterfowling has a better chance of surviving if guides introduce new hunters to the sport. I have also seen bowhunters complaining because of too many hunters. I feel that the more popular bow hunting gets, the better chance it has of survival. As hunters we all need to lose the "keep it to ourself attitude".

[Machias]

Here's the problem with alot of folks who don't own dogs.  And let me be clear up front I'm NOT saying you shouldn't have the same opportunities as me for harvesting that big old mellon headed tom, because you should.  But with no pursuit season and no way for a hound guy to consistently have the ability to run and train their dogs the system is broke.  First off the whole quota season set the hunt up as a race and therefore almost forced guys to kill the first cat they treed, thus the first few years houndsmen were knuckle heads and shot alot of females.  I lobbied hard and loud on any hound board I had access to, to STOP shooting immature animals, be they females or toms and to stop shooting females unless they were exceptional specimens...even then I personally restrained myself.  But the way they set it up, set that whole thing in motion.  Heck one year the harvest was closed well before Christmas.  I treed 4 cats that winter, three immature animals before Christmas and one really nice tom...after the harvest was closed.  No biggie.  I have been able to get on someones tag as a hound handler twice.  I could only turn loose when they were with me which hardly ever happened.  Both times they were on the west side and could not make more than a couple of trips over and once one of them got his cat he never went back out the rest of the winter.  So in two years as a hound handler I ran my dogs a grand total of three times.  As you gentlemen know this does nothing for the dogs and drives you crazy, hence two years ago I got so frustrated I sold all my dogs and all my gear.  I have dearly missed it all every day since.  I got drawn for an Idaho tag and can't wait to jump back in the game with both feet.  So far in the past three weeks I have spent over $3500 and haven't even hit the woods yet.  I have one 18 month old pup, just started and an almost finished dog coming in the next couple of days.  Hopefully by the end of 2011, I'll have two well trained kick ass dogs, but it will take me alot of time, effort and money to get there.  Time, effort and money I'm willing to pay with no guarantee I'll get to run my dogs next year or the next 10 years.  They have to come up with a pursuit only tag and I will be happy as heck to take along anyone for absolutely no money anytime they want to go.  I don't want compensation, watching the dogs is the compensation, but I have to have someway to consistently keep my dogs in the woods and trained.  They are top athletes, imagine how the good the Seahawks would play if they only played a quarter every three or four years....ok, that's a bad example to use.  

[Machias]

Sorry Scott for hi-jacking your thread!!!   

[mulehunter]

Sorry Scott for hi-jacking your thread!!!   

No worry. Its all good.

Mulehunter.