White river special permit holders of the past

[MooseStock]

I really wish that were the case BigTex and you are partially right.....there HAVE been some changes with the tribes...BUT not with the Muckleshoots. They still have the agreements with Hancock that came along with the Weyco sale including Tribal Hunting, some seperate permits and access of their own to the Leido (6300) area that none of us get unless you walk in. Thats a bummer because those other tribes don't take as many Elk on the treefarm as the Muckleshoots if you added them all together so it might sound good on paper...BUT its the same old deal....................Les

[bigtex]

Are you talking Kapowsin

ALL Hancock lands will be closed to treaty hunting because it has been ruled that Hancock lands are not "open and unclaimed" which is necessary for tribal hunting to occur.

[Practical Approach]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.

I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River.  The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults.  I think over 90% of them were cougar kills.  If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem.  I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better.  Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done.  IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them.  Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists.  And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

[bigtex]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.

And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

Well lets see, Mucks can use a crossbow at any time (this came from a Muckleshoot hunter). General citizens can only use them if they are disabled or in a firearm restriction area. Hmmm sounds to me WDFW rules are more strict.

How can you say they are highly enforced? The Mucks can hunt from the Packwood area to Canada how does a muck enforcement officer know where a muck hunter is? He doesn't he simply works the area with the most pressure which means the other areas are totally open to crime.

I am friends with several WDFW Officers in the muckleshoot hunting area and have seen murder scenes of elk dead all over the place and going to waste. Pictures of elk hanging in garages with flies and maggots. People that hunt elk in snow 5 feet deep is not a hunter, and that is what the muckleshoots do.

I read the Muckleshoots annual report for last year and it said that the reason why the tribe bought the 7,500 acres from Hancock was to preserve tribal hunting rights and to stop tribal members from getting tickets from WDFW Officers. Hmmmmm maybe if the tribal members followed the law they would not get a ticket.

And finally, why if the Mucks are so great at wildlife management and enforcement why do most WDFW officers consider the Muck tribe to be the hardest to work/get along with? In fact most don't even try to work with them.

[CRITTERSTICKER]

Of course they have done alot for their deer and elk and salmon as they dont have to spend their money across the state..The WDFW is alotted a certain amount of money for a calendar year and have to make a decision on what programs to fund from state line to state line along with paying the enforcers. The muckleshoot get to spend their TAX FREE money on whatever they want to, to make sure they get to kill their animals. I dont see why they just havent bought a couple thousand acres and make a high fence area and fill it with animals and shoot to their hearts content. Radio collaring doesnt do squat but track animals so they know where they went to so they can go and kill some more animals. If you want to show me something to make me change my thinking then show me a group of indians that bow hunts..

[wonder]

Good point, you know I've never run across any native americans when I've been out bowhunting (38 years) ?  Anyone out there want to add to these comments as to why no or few native americans hunt with bow and arrow ?  After all, can't get much more traditional than that 

[ser300wsm]

You know i could say a whole lot on why the natives dont hunt with traditional weapons, but i will just say that hunting with a modern firearm is easier for them.... Enough said.... 

[7mag.]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.

I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River.  The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults.  I think over 90% of them were cougar kills.  If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem.  I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better.  Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done.  IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them.  Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists.  And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

You are out of your mind.

[trophyhunt]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.

I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River.  The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults.  I think over 90% of them were cougar kills.  If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem.  I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better.  Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done.  IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them.  Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists.  And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years.  That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!!  They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.

[bigtex]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.

I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River.  The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults.  I think over 90% of them were cougar kills.  If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem.  I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better.  Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done.  IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them.  Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists.  And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years.  That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!!  They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.

Bruce Richards is probably the one thing that prevented the herd from going extinct. The Mucks have tried to have him fired many times and he was taken to the governor many times for things he did that were against the tribe. I would probably be right in saying that Bruce Richards has been the biggest/best help for wildlife in the White River area then any other person. Bruce has given nearly 40 years of his life to WDFW as a game warden in the White River area and gets no credit for the things he has done to help wildlife.

I think it shows your a good game warden when a tribe tries to have you fired. 

[logger]

Just a memory on my part, but in about 85 or 86 my dad was logging a salvage sale on the edge of goverment meadows up the 70 rd. I remember going up one morning and when you get on top and it's a big flat there was a game warden parked cross way's in the road counting elk and I had at that time never seen so many in one spot, they were everywhere and in talking with him he was going to call in a helicopter to bust up the herd because the indians were set to begin hunting the next day and he didn't want to have a huge slaughter on his hands.I will say when we were logging the forest service ground up there we saw elk everyday and now that it is permit only just totally blows me away to think what it once was.

[bigtex]

Just a memory on my part, but in about 85 or 86 my dad was logging a salvage sale on the edge of goverment meadows up the 70 rd. I remember going up one morning and when you get on top and it's a big flat there was a game warden parked cross way's in the road counting elk and I had at that time never seen so many in one spot, they were everywhere and in talking with him he was going to call in a helicopter to bust up the herd because the indians were set to begin hunting the next day and he didn't want to have a huge slaughter on his hands.I will say when we were logging the forest service ground up there we saw elk everyday and now that it is permit only just totally blows me away to think what it once was.

I'm willing to bet the game warden was Bruce Richards. He is basically the lone ranger in that area and has been since the mid-70s.

[trophyhunt]

Glad to read what you've written about Bruce. You couldn't have said it better, Gob bless the man. He was partner to my wife's uncle Terry Hoffer so we get to see him once in a while and the stories he has about the mucks will make your blood boil. The man is a hero to me and should be to all those who care about elk and other wildlife in our state. What sucks is when he retires the mucks will probably kill 10 elk in celebration, no matter what time of year it will be. It will be a sad day when he hangs up his boots, I wish he would write a book and/or sit down with a news person and tell his life story for all the public to hear. That would be very bad for the tribes, which would make me extremely happy. Go Bruce Richards, and for the younger wardens that are on this site- you can learn a lot from Bruce as you should.

[Practical Approach]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a successful rebound.

And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

Well lets see, Mucks can use a crossbow at any time (this came from a Muckleshoot hunter). General citizens can only use them if they are disabled or in a firearm restriction area. Hmmm sounds to me WDFW rules are more strict.

How can you say they are highly enforced? The Mucks can hunt from the Packwood area to Canada how does a muck enforcement officer know where a muck hunter is? He doesn't he simply works the area with the most pressure which means the other areas are totally open to crime.

I am friends with several WDFW Officers in the muckleshoot hunting area and have seen murder scenes of elk dead all over the place and going to waste. Pictures of elk hanging in garages with flies and maggots. People that hunt elk in snow 5 feet deep is not a hunter, and that is what the muckleshoots do.

I read the Muckleshoots annual report for last year and it said that the reason why the tribe bought the 7,500 acres from Hancock was to preserve tribal hunting rights and to stop tribal members from getting tickets from WDFW Officers. Hmmmmm maybe if the tribal members followed the law they would not get a ticket.

And finally, why if the Mucks are so great at wildlife management and enforcement why do most WDFW officers consider the Muck tribe to be the hardest to work/get along with? In fact most don't even try to work with them.

Sure you can find exceptions to any regulations,but really, how many people do you know that hunt with crossbows.  Is that the best comparison out there? 

There are more enforcement officers per hunting tribal member than WDFW officers per state hunter.  Yes they can hunt from Packwood to Canada, but you can hunt all over the state.  Not following your logic.  Maybe I am missing something.

I know a friend or I am friends with or I heard is always a great opener to a good story.  Yes I know most of the enforcement guys in that area as well, and not to mention names but there are a few that hate everything about tribes regardless.  And if the stories are coming from officers out of that office there stories don't hold a lot of water in my books.  But that's just my books.  I know the captain for that region and have never heard those complaints for Muckleshoot. I would hate to hear animals are being wasted, but I don't think that is the case for the majority of tribal hunters.  By the way, if you need to feed your family or provide elk for a funeral, killing an elk in 5 feet of snow is not a huge deal to me.  It is about gettingthe food that they need.  Its not a state sportsman season type of a hunt.  It isn't hunting at all really , It is getting in the woods getting the food you need and getting out.  You may not like it as  a sportsman, but that is what it is.

I doubt many of those tickets are legit and probably get tossed out by the court systems, however buying your own land is a nice way to take biased officers out of the picture and eliminate harassment don't you think? 

Muckleshoot doesn't agree with all of WDFW's management strategies. They don't roll over for any management strategy that is proposed by WDFW.  For instance,  Muckleshoot put hundreds of thousands of dollars into elk adult and calf survival studies as well as deer and fawn survival studies to determine factors influencing the elk and deer populations.  The largest contributing factor to zero to limited fawn and calf recruitment was cougar predation.  Therefore the Muckleshoot tribe collared cougars to document the rate of predation by the cougars and came to the conclusion that some of them needed to be removed from the population.  WDFW didn't want that, that didn't fit with their cougar plan.  The tribe, while at odds with the WDFW removed and has been removing cats in the area while the WDFW is opposed.  Muckleshoot managed game populations for the benefit of their hunting constituents, therefore it is in their best interest as a hunting community to provide maximum opportunity.  Thus ensuring healthy huntable populations.  WDFW on the otherhand has to manage populations for hunters, bunny huggers, etc.  WE already know who has the loudest voice in Washington state out of the two groups.  Remember hound hunting?  Sorry for the ramble. 

[Practical Approach]

Of course they have done alot for their deer and elk and salmon as they dont have to spend their money across the state..The WDFW is alotted a certain amount of money for a calendar year and have to make a decision on what programs to fund from state line to state line along with paying the enforcers. The muckleshoot get to spend their TAX FREE money on whatever they want to, to make sure they get to kill their animals. I dont see why they just havent bought a couple thousand acres and make a high fence area and fill it with animals and shoot to their hearts content. Radio collaring doesnt do squat but track animals so they know where they went to so they can go and kill some more animals. If you want to show me something to make me change my thinking then show me a group of indians that bow hunts..

YOu know it is kind of nice that they are putting their money towards wildlife management that benefits everyone. Sounds like they are buying land.  Are you a biologist?  If radio collaring doesn't to squat, then why is it done all over the world for wildlife management?  I don't really want to show you anything.  You have blinders on my friend.  I have never understood the argument as to why an Indian needs to bow hunt?  Really?  Bowhunting makes you a hunter?  I guess all of the rifle hunters out there aren't real hunters in your eyes, or am I missing something?