Dave Ware's March 4th Presentation on Special Permits

[Curly]

I think that is a good point, Snapshot.  And the way I see it, there wasn't enough opposition to this ridiculous permit system that D Ware came up with; otherwise the commission would have been obligated to put a stop to the system last year before it was implemented.  (Of course Dave Ware could just be lying and there really was more letters against the system than the 46 that he mentioned).

It just makes me sick to hear Ware lie to the commission to get his crap approved by them......

[dreamingbig]

Snapshot -

I listened to all of the audio.  I did not get the sense that they are a well informed commission.

[Bob33]

Of course Dave Ware could just be lying and there really was more letters against the system than the 46 that he mentioned).

I alone know for a fact that at least 10 people wrote letters to the commission.  I did, and several of my friends did.  I also do not know of a single hunter that supported the change, in spite of the "broad public support" comments we hear from Olympia.

[Special T]

TRUST is the key lacking componet of the WDFW.. They can tell me anything they want, all i can do is let them know how much or little i support them. 

[trophyhunt]

I do not like the new system, and I hate the way they draw names. They explained it to me on the phone but it was too confusing to understand. when people can draw tags with one point and one guy in this state has 26 points and doesn't get drawn there is something very wrong with the system.  I have talked to Dave Ware about this and about the 10 or more point category. If we are going to keep this system which they will it produces too much money for them, then I love the Idea of a category that only lets people with 10 or more points apply.  I even think areas that only have 10 or fewer tags should only be available to people with 8 or more points.  I just wrong that us guys that have been waiting 16 years for certain tags get nothing while some lucky guy with 1 or 4 points gets the tag.  I believe you should have to sacrifice some time to draw some of our very special tags, and a few of us have for far too long.

they did reduce categories this year, in the OIL tags.  I disagree with setting a certain number aside for guys with 10 or more points.  Some of those high point guys may only apply for one unit, perhaps if they applied for 2,3, or 4 they would have drawn tags in the past.  I've drawn what I consider to be 4 premium tags in this state in 15 years of applying and of those I got 1 first choice, 1 third choice and 2 fourth choices.  Had I only put one choice down I would only have drawn one good hunt in 15 years.  that's what some guys do and then they ***** about never drawing anything.  I don't feel too sorry for those folks. 

I have been putting in for the two choices in quality,as much as I can and before the new system I was putting in for 3 of the 4 choices we had for elk. An example of what I was talking about earlier is, a guy I know drew the green river watershed elk hunt 2 years ago when they had 3 tags. The other two people with the elk tags had drawn with 1 and 4 points, he had 12.  I don't believe they should have been able to put in for it so soon mostly because how they do the drawings is f'd up. There is too many examples of people drawing with very little points when guys have been waiting a 1/4 of their life for some of these tags.  I had 14 points a couple years ago and didn't draw one of the 3 tags given out in the wenaha for elk muzzy, I'm not saying I should have been drawn. I'm saying someone that had close to my points or more should have been drawn before the people who did get drawn, they had 2,4,6 points. The way they draw is screwd, the odds that those 3 get drawn before any other of us with 10 or more points has got to be amazing. My point is the way they do the drawing doesn't make the point system work, if it worked you wouldn't see 3 tags go to people with 2,4 and 6 points when perhaps thousands of other numbers are going against their 4,16 and 36 names in the hat.  Got to go for now, will bitch later.

I ABSOLUTELY disagree. I BUY might special permit application every year the same as you. I pay just as much as you. What makes you any better then me? I think we should have the same opportunities. If you have 12 points that you have earned then that should be your only advantage. Everyone who pays the same amount of money should be able to put in for the same hunts.

I never said I was better than anyone, I never would.  I just don't think the way they draw the special permits is right.  If they put your name in a big hat as many times as your points add up and then pick out the names that would make more sense and I would think the draws would come out to make more sense. They do it in a way that doesn't make sense and that allows guys with fewer points to have almost the same odds.  As far as advantages go, yes I do think that people with 16 points or more SHOULD have a huge advantage over someone with 6 or less- You bet! that's how it's supposed to work.

[grundy53]

I do not like the new system, and I hate the way they draw names. They explained it to me on the phone but it was too confusing to understand. when people can draw tags with one point and one guy in this state has 26 points and doesn't get drawn there is something very wrong with the system.  I have talked to Dave Ware about this and about the 10 or more point category. If we are going to keep this system which they will it produces too much money for them, then I love the Idea of a category that only lets people with 10 or more points apply.  I even think areas that only have 10 or fewer tags should only be available to people with 8 or more points.  I just wrong that us guys that have been waiting 16 years for certain tags get nothing while some lucky guy with 1 or 4 points gets the tag.  I believe you should have to sacrifice some time to draw some of our very special tags, and a few of us have for far too long.

they did reduce categories this year, in the OIL tags.  I disagree with setting a certain number aside for guys with 10 or more points.  Some of those high point guys may only apply for one unit, perhaps if they applied for 2,3, or 4 they would have drawn tags in the past.  I've drawn what I consider to be 4 premium tags in this state in 15 years of applying and of those I got 1 first choice, 1 third choice and 2 fourth choices.  Had I only put one choice down I would only have drawn one good hunt in 15 years.  that's what some guys do and then they ***** about never drawing anything.  I don't feel too sorry for those folks. 

I have been putting in for the two choices in quality,as much as I can and before the new system I was putting in for 3 of the 4 choices we had for elk. An example of what I was talking about earlier is, a guy I know drew the green river watershed elk hunt 2 years ago when they had 3 tags. The other two people with the elk tags had drawn with 1 and 4 points, he had 12.  I don't believe they should have been able to put in for it so soon mostly because how they do the drawings is f'd up. There is too many examples of people drawing with very little points when guys have been waiting a 1/4 of their life for some of these tags.  I had 14 points a couple years ago and didn't draw one of the 3 tags given out in the wenaha for elk muzzy, I'm not saying I should have been drawn. I'm saying someone that had close to my points or more should have been drawn before the people who did get drawn, they had 2,4,6 points. The way they draw is screwd, the odds that those 3 get drawn before any other of us with 10 or more points has got to be amazing. My point is the way they do the drawing doesn't make the point system work, if it worked you wouldn't see 3 tags go to people with 2,4 and 6 points when perhaps thousands of other numbers are going against their 4,16 and 36 names in the hat.  Got to go for now, will bitch later.

I ABSOLUTELY disagree. I BUY might special permit application every year the same as you. I pay just as much as you. What makes you any better then me? I think we should have the same opportunities. If you have 12 points that you have earned then that should be your only advantage. Everyone who pays the same amount of money should be able to put in for the same hunts.

I never said I was better than anyone, I never would.  I just don't think the way they draw the special permits is right.  If they put your name in a big hat as many times as your points add up and then pick out the names that would make more sense and I would think the draws would come out to make more sense. They do it in a way that doesn't make sense and that allows guys with fewer points to have almost the same odds.  As far as advantages go, yes I do think that people with 16 points or more SHOULD have a huge advantage over someone with 6 or less- You bet! that's how it's supposed to work.

The guy's with 16 points DO have a huge advantage over the guy's with six. The guys with 16 have their names in the hat 256 times where as the guy with six point only has his name in the hat 36 times. Are you telling me that they have the same odds? The reason that guys with lower numbers of points draw so often is because there are way more people with 6 points then 16. If I pay for a permit application the same as you I should be able to have a chance at getting drawn the same as you. Your reward for putting in for so many years and not getting drawn is better odds. I don't see what is so wrong with that? 

[trophyhunt]

I may be wrong but I don't think the drawing is a simple as you explained it, with a certain amount of names in the hat.  It should be that way, they have a more difficult way of Putting Names in the hat and I couldn't explain how they told me how they do it.

[grundy53]

I may be wrong but I don't think the drawing is a simple as you explained it, with a certain amount of names in the hat.  It should be that way, they have a more difficult way of Putting Names in the hat and I couldn't explain how they told me how they do it.

I'm pretty sure how I explained it is how it is. I could be wrong though (it's been known to happen). I don't see what else they could possibly do to the draw other then what I said.

[Bob33]

I may be wrong but I don't think the drawing is a simple as you explained it, with a certain amount of names in the hat.  It should be that way, they have a more difficult way of Putting Names in the hat and I couldn't explain how they told me how they do it.

I'm pretty sure how I explained it is how it is. I could be wrong though (it's been known to happen). I don't see what else they could possibly do to the draw other then what I said.

You are absolutely correct, Grundy53.  And you are also spot on as to why people with fewer points tend to draw more often than people with lots of points: there are simply a much larger number of them.  In 2009 there were 19 elk applicants with 16 points, 2,959 applicants with six points, and 10,374 applicants with two points.  That means there are 546 applicants with two points for every applicant with 16 points.

As to how the drawing works, here is WDFW's FAQ:

Q: How do the hunt choices work?
A: When the drawing occurs, it is as if all of the applications for a species category are placed in a barrel. The computer spins the barrel by issuing random numbers to each application. The lowest random number that is issued to each application is the number used to order the applications from the lowest random number to the highest. It is the same as drawing cards from a barrel one by one. The application with the lowest random number is drawn first from the barrel and the hunt choices are checked. As each application comes up for consideration, the first hunt choice is checked to see if there is a permit left to be awarded. If there are none left, the second hunt choice is checked. If there is a permit available for that hunt choice, the application is selected for that hunt. If not, the process continues until all of the hunt choices on the application have been checked. If all of the hunt choices marked on the card have run out of permits, no permits are awarded to that application.

Q: How do I build up points?
A: Each person who applies for a special hunt permit for a species receives a point for applying. If that person is not awarded a special hunt permit during that drawing the point is retained. If the person is awarded a permit, that person's point total drops to zero. If the person who was not awarded a permit for that species applies the next year, they then have two points. A single point is built up each year the person purchases a special permit application until the person is awarded a permit. Points never expire and you do not lose your points if you don’t apply one year.

Q: What is the value of building up points?
A: Building up points is very much like putting more application cards into the barrel. Those that have more cards in the barrel have an advantage over those that have less. The more points a person has built up for a species over time, the greater are the chances that his/hers will be selected.

Q: I heard that the points have multipliers on them. What is that for?
A: Some permit drawing systems are designed so that one random number is issued for each point built up for the species by the applicant. It is the same as having one card in the barrel for each point (one point - one card, two points - two cards, etc.).

Washington's system places a multiplier on the points. The number of points is squared and it is this number of random numbers that are issued to the application (or number of cards in the barrel). If a person applies for an elk permit for the first time, they have one card in the barrel. If a person has built up two points, they have four cards in the barrel. If a person has three points built up, nine cards are in the barrel and so on.

Placing a multiplier on the points more noticeably increases the chances of being selected over someone who is a new applicant or was recently awarded a permit.

[trophyhunt]

Thanks for posting that Bob33, it took me a couple times of reading that to understand but now I do.  I still like the Idea of having a seperate catagory for people who have 10 points or more, IMO.

[grundy53]

I guess I will never understand that logic. Oh well to each their own. I hope they never do that.

[bobcat]

The system is already designed to give people a better chance of drawing every year, as their number of points increase. It is absolutely asinine to even consider making a separate category for those with 10 points or more. The only reason the DFW would do such a thing is to sell more applications. I won't be surprised at all though if they choose to make this state's permit system even more ridiculous than it already is. We must be the laughing stock of every other fish & wildlife department in this country.

[Bob33]

I won't be surprised at all though if they choose to make this state's permit system even more ridiculous than it already is. We must be the laughing stock of every other fish & wildlife department in this country.

I've been thinking maybe we should run a contest to help them come up with some new categories.  Each one could generate additional revenue, and probably would have "broad public support" if the questions are asked correctly.  Here are some ideas:

Crappy deer: the opposite of "quality deer"; should be easy to draw with just a few points.
Disabled deer: only deer with deformities are legal; could be presented as doing nature a favor.
"Fake spike" elk.  Not sure what the definition would be, but it sounds like a cool category.
Odd numbered elk: the sum of points on the left and right sides have to be an odd number.

[bobcat]

I know I shouldn't say this as I don't want to give them ideas, but they could have a special category just for Non-Residents. That would really encourage non-resident applications and generate tons of revenue.   
 
(I'm guessing they have already thought of it though)

[trophyhunt]

I'm guessing the guys that don't like the 10 points or better catagory don't have 10 points?  I would think if you've been waiting 16 plus years to draw a tag that you would get tired of seeing guys with 2 points drawing?  I'm not here to argue with anyone, just my  .