Counting Points on Mule deer

[Alan K]

It's about describing your animal so that people will understand the caliber (age class in general) of the animal.

With whitetails 99% of the bucks have eyeguards as soon as they are forked.  In that case it's safe to assume that someone will know that a five point is in fact a buck with 4 points and an eyeguard. 

With blacktails and mule deer, more often than not they don't have eyeguards.  When you're describing the caliber of your buck you DON'T include eyeguard points in the number, you tack on "with eyeguards" at the end so that people know the caliber of animal you're talking about.  There is a big difference between a 2 point blacktail or mule deer with eyeguards and a 3 point without any.  Like what Bobcat said, it doesn't matter what the WDFW calls them, eyeguard points don't give you an idea of the age of the animal, which is what we try to get across when we describe the size of our animals to our buddies.

If someone called me up and said they shot a nice 3 point blacktail and I went over and looked at it and it turned out to be a little forked horn with 1 inch eyeguards I'd probably laugh at their puffery.  I've seen some gnarly old BT bucks with several 1" burrs around the bases, and if one of the guys in particular were to count those he'd probably have like a 6x7 buck (4x4 frame, w/ eyeguards, w/burrs), which is clearly NOT the case when you're trying to describe to someone what the buck is.


Somewhat along these lines, it kills me when guys describe first year legal roosevelts down here in SW Washington as 2 points (2 point with 2 eyeguards).  98% of branched bulls have the two eyeguards, so if you just call it a 4 point people will understand what that is because ALL LEGAL BULLS HAVE THEM!  When I meet someone new down here and we're talking about the animals we kill we always have to explain the way we are describing the points. 

[windygorge]

i can understand it helping to describe what it is.  the only way i will not argue til my death, is the fact that it is not typical for a muley or BT to grow eye guards.  other than that, i would think this region is full of idiots.  thank you for all your posts.  it will be hard for me to count them that way, but i will start, and at the same time will be gritting my teeth...

[grundy53]

It's about describing your animal so that people will understand the caliber (age class in general) of the animal.

With whitetails 99% of the bucks have eyeguards as soon as they are forked.  In that case it's safe to assume that someone will know that a five point is in fact a buck with 4 points and an eyeguard. 

With blacktails and mule deer, more often than not they don't have eyeguards.  When you're describing the caliber of your buck you DON'T include eyeguard points in the number, you tack on "with eyeguards" at the end so that people know the caliber of animal you're talking about.  There is a big difference between a 2 point blacktail or mule deer with eyeguards and a 3 point without any.  Like what Bobcat said, it doesn't matter what the WDFW calls them, eyeguard points don't give you an idea of the age of the animal, which is what we try to get across when we describe the size of our animals to our buddies.

If someone called me up and said they shot a nice 3 point blacktail and I went over and looked at it and it turned out to be a little forked horn with 1 inch eyeguards I'd probably laugh at their puffery.  I've seen some gnarly old BT bucks with several 1" burrs around the bases, and if one of the guys in particular were to count those he'd probably have like a 6x7 buck (4x4 frame, w/ eyeguards, w/burrs), which is clearly NOT the case when you're trying to describe to someone what the buck is.


Somewhat along these lines, it kills me when guys describe first year legal roosevelts down here in SW Washington as 2 points (2 point with 2 eyeguards).  98% of branched bulls have the two eyeguards, so if you just call it a 4 point people will understand what that is because ALL LEGAL BULLS HAVE THEM!  When I meet someone new down here and we're talking about the animals we kill we always have to explain the way we are describing the points. 

Not all legal bulls have double eye guards. This past season my buddy shot a 2 point w/ single eyeguards.

[grundy53]

I think Bobcat nailed it.

[Alan K]

Single or double (3x3 or 4x4), 99% they're the same age though! That's really what we're describing when we give a point count.  Would you call this bull a 2x3?  It would be more accurate to describe it as a 4x4 (age class wise) in my opinion.

[grundy53]

Single or double, 99% they're the same age though! That's really what we're describing when we give a point count.

I agree. Which is why we don't count the eyeguards. To me saying I killed a 2 point tells everyone its a raghorn. Whereas if I say I killed a 4 point some people might assume I just killed a 2 point with eyeguards but a lot would assume I killed a 4 point with double eyeguards. Either way I don't really care to each their own. I will keep not counting eyeguards but it doesn't bother me when people do.

[grundy53]

Single or double (3x3 or 4x4), 99% they're the same age though! That's really what we're describing when we give a point count.  Would you call this bull a 2x3?  It would be more accurate to describe it as a 4x4 (age class wise) in my opinion.

Actually the more I think about it point count is not a very accurate way to describe age class. I've seen 2 points (4x4) that were a couple years difference. as well as 5x5's and 6x6's. Point count is more indicative of genetics, not age.

[grundy53]

Here is an example from tis past season. The bull in te center is a 5x5 but is the same age as th 4x4 on right. They are both older then te 5x4 on the left. You cannot determine age class with point count alone...

[grundy53]

here is another example. The 4x4 on the far right is not the same age as the 4x4 on the far left...

[Alan K]

For sure, and it has a lot to do with feed too as to whether or not genetics get to show.  It's really all we have though, short of estimating age ourselves. The last bull I killed was just a 4 point (2 point  ) but it had about double the frame and lots more mass than your average first year legal bull in that area.  No doubt in my mind it was a 3.5 year old rather than a 2.5 year old.  And yeah this thread isn't really going to change the way anything is described!

Regessing animals throw a kink into this whole thing too, those point counts certainly aren't indicative of age. It's more often seen with bucks rather than bulls.  Most bulls down here don't make it anywhere that far. 

[grundy53]

For sure, and it has a lot to do with feed too as to whether or not genetics get to show.  It's really all we have though, short of estimating age ourselves. The last bull I killed was just a 4 point (2 point  ) but it had about double the frame and lots more mass than your average first year legal bull in that area.  No doubt in my mind it was a 3.5 year old rather than a 2.5 year old.  And yeah this thread isn't really going to change the way anything is described!

Regessing animals throw a kink into this whole thing too, those point counts certainly aren't indicative of age. It's more often seen with bucks rather than bulls.  Most bulls down here don't make it anywhere that far. 

I agree

[windygorge]

Single or double, 99% they're the same age though! That's really what we're describing when we give a point count.

I agree. Which is why we don't count the eyeguards. To me saying I killed a 2 point tells everyone its a raghorn. Whereas if I say I killed a 4 point some people might assume I just killed a 2 point with eyeguards but a lot would assume I killed a 4 point with double eyeguards. Either way I don't really care to each their own. I will keep not counting eyeguards but it doesn't bother me when people do.

grundy, you start counting elk that way, then you opened up a BIG can of worms with me.  you don't count them that way, it not to each his own.  the so called eye guards on an elk ARE a point and will always be a point.  get out of that freaken mentality.  its stupid.  they are there they will always have them, if they don't they have broken them off.  period. 

[grundy53]

Single or double, 99% they're the same age though! That's really what we're describing when we give a point count.

I agree. Which is why we don't count the eyeguards. To me saying I killed a 2 point tells everyone its a raghorn. Whereas if I say I killed a 4 point some people might assume I just killed a 2 point with eyeguards but a lot would assume I killed a 4 point with double eyeguards. Either way I don't really care to each their own. I will keep not counting eyeguards but it doesn't bother me when people do.

grundy, you start counting elk that way, then you opened up a BIG can of worms with me.  you don't count them that way, it not to each his own.  the so called eye guards on an elk ARE a point and will always be a point.  get out of that freaken mentality.  its stupid.  they are there they will always have them, if they don't they have broken them off.  period.

Like I said to each their own. I know people that feel as passionate as you feel about this issue only they have exactly the opposite view. You have your OPINION and they have theirs. To be honest they could care less what size of can the worms are in... I really don't see why this is such a big deal. Every region of this country count their points different. Is one way better then another? Yes but it depends on which region your in to which method is better.

[hoyt2002]

I thought this was about mule deer??

[grundy53]

I thought this was about mule deer??

Same counting techniques are used on both.