Gun safes in your house

[washelkhntr]

I am going to add a new gun safe, but a smaller one then what I already have, it weighs in at just under 500 lbs. Would it be alright to put in in the house on the downstairs floor without having to get into the crawl space and reinforce the floor under where I want to put the safe?

I am not a construction guy, so I really have no idea how much weight a standard floor would even hold. Last thing I want is it falling through the floor or screwing up the flooring somehow.

My other one is on a concrete slab and I would like to put this one there as well, but I don't have the space for it.

[jdmecomber]

safes make the owner feel better, but you can still be a victim from thiefs. If you have the option  concrete it in and use the tuffest bolts you can find to bolt it to the floor.   

[carpsniperg2]

Remember you have to also add in the weight of the guns Not sure on your question what you would need.

[mkcj]

 Your safe would be about 700 pounds full over about 6-7sq ft that's not that much

[Todd_ID]

Depending on the jurisdiction, and if I remember correctly, I'm pretty sure most residential floor joists are sized to provide at least 40 pounds per square foot (psf) of live load (stuff that can move) or 10 psf for dead load (stationary stuff).  A 500 pound safe would need to cover 50 sq ft of floor, so I say stiffen it with a pad and some posts underneath.

[addicted]

Depending on the jurisdiction, and if I remember correctly, I'm pretty sure most residential floor joists are sized to provide at least 40 pounds per square foot (psf) of live load (stuff that can move) or 10 psf for dead load (stationary stuff).  A 500 pound safe would need to cover 50 sq ft of floor, so I say stiffen it with a pad and some posts underneath.

ok todd, stand on one foot....... you are now illegal lol

40 pounds per sqft seems kinda light.

[Bofire]

its 40 live and 10 dead, 500 lbs is no problem. 2 guys standing are close to that load. my safe is 3'X3' so 9 square feet, is slightly over loaded but the perscriptive design standards are  over built. The biggest thing is keep your  guns and safe a secret.
Carl

[addicted]

some day i'll build my secret gun room 

[7mag.]

I'm assuming you are going to put it next to the wall. I've never seen a gun safe in the middle of a room. So, you have nothing to worry about. The strength of the floor joist get higher the closer you get to an exterior wall, unless you have post and beam, then you probably have car-decking as well, and that is even better.

I have a 12 gun safe, that I believe, weighs around 800 lbs. empty. I put it in the corner, and there is no worries on my part.

[washelkhntr]

Thanks for all the replies.

Yes, it would be going up against a wall in the corner.

[Jamieb]

Never gave it much thought before, I'd sure be pissed if I walked into the giun room and my safe had fallen through the floor.

[BOWHUNTER45]

I'm assuming you are going to put it next to the wall. I've never seen a gun safe in the middle of a room. So, you have nothing to worry about. The strength of the floor joist get higher the closer you get to an exterior wall, unless you have post and beam, then you probably have car-decking as well, and that is even better.

I have a 12 gun safe, that I believe, weighs around 800 lbs. empty. I put it in the corner, and there is no worries on my part.

Being a contractor I would have to agree with this one !

[Bean Counter]

...2 guys standing are close to that load....

  what's going on in the corner over there, Carl? 

[demontang]

Close to the wall and bolted down and I normaly have it sitting across beams in the floor and in between. I throw some lead in the bottom of mine just incase someone can get it out of the floor it will weigh a ton more

[Alchase]

I have my 24 gun safe in our upstairs bedroom. No concerns here. My only concern is if and when I have to move that sucker again. I broke one dolly in between flights bringing up the stairs.
One tip for moving the safe around, get these furnature sliders and put them under the safe. My wife can easily slide the safe around by herself with these under it.
 
http://www.amazon.com/Amazing-Sliders-Furniture-Set/sim/B0007IQEQ4/2
 
You can find them at almost any store.

[mebco09]

Depending on the jurisdiction, and if I remember correctly, I'm pretty sure most residential floor joists are sized to provide at least 40 pounds per square foot (psf) of live load (stuff that can move) or 10 psf for dead load (stationary stuff).  A 500 pound safe would need to cover 50 sq ft of floor, so I say stiffen it with a pad and some posts underneath.

Live load is what you put into the building.  Dead load is the weight of the products that make up the building system (wood, plywood, carpet, sheetrock etc.).  So your 40PSF is the number that controls the deflection in your floor.   Any amount over that may cause some deflection (although may not make the floor fail).

The second bit of advice is good though, stiffen the floor if you can with a couple of pier pads, maybe a small beam and some posts in the crawlspace.  Even if you are within the 40 PSF design load, stiffening will help alleviate any sagging, etc.

[marlin]

including guns i would guess my safe is around 650lbs, in a 2nd floor apt! And a toolbox full of tools right next to it prob weighs 300.. bookshelf full of books and movies next to that. I hope it never ends up in my downstairs neighbors apt. 

[Wacenturion]

I'm assuming you are going to put it next to the wall. I've never seen a gun safe in the middle of a room. So, you have nothing to worry about. The strength of the floor joist get higher the closer you get to an exterior wall, unless you have post and beam, then you probably have car-decking as well, and that is even better.

I have a 12 gun safe, that I believe, weighs around 800 lbs. empty. I put it in the corner, and there is no worries on my part.

Exactly.

[bow-n-head]

The only reason I don't have a gun safe is getting it into the basement. That is where I want it. 500lbs will be a little more than I can handle on my own down a flight of stairs. You guys have any tricks for moving a safe?

[actionshooter]

The only reason I don't have a gun safe is getting it into the basement. That is where I want it. 500lbs will be a little more than I can handle on my own down a flight of stairs. You guys have any tricks for moving a safe?

Ya, have the safe company move it for you. 
Cheaper than you would think

[400out]

I think you will be ok! The only question I have and I may be wrong in this question is, Are you sure it's lumber construction in the basement! Everyone I have been in and worked on were concrete! 

[ICEMAN]

washelkhunter, don't be scared of the crawl work, pretty easy actually.

Purchase two concrete pier blocks with brackets that adjust to height simply by turning a bolt with a crescent wrench. Buy enough 4inch by 4inch pressure treated fence post material needed to reach from the pier blocks to the flooring above. Tack a six foot long piece of the 4x4 post material across a few floor joist under your safe, this is your "helper beam". Slide your pier blocks under the helper beam, and cut two posts to reach from pier block to beam. Cut and install, then start turning your two bolts to tighen the whole thing in place. Cheap, easy, effective.

[purplecowboy]

Purchase two concrete pier blocks with brackets that adjust to height simply by turning a bolt with a crescent wrench. Buy enough 4inch by 4inch pressure treated fence post material needed to reach from the pier blocks to the flooring above. Tack a six foot long piece of the 4x4 post material across a few floor joist under your safe, this is your "helper beam". Slide your pier blocks under the helper beam, and cut two posts to reach from pier block to beam. Cut and install, then start turning your two bolts to tighen the whole thing in place. Cheap, easy, effective.

Do not put your pier blocks on the dirt. They will just be forced into the ground. You need to either put a concrete pad or put 4X4's on the ground. The 4X4's will eventually rot but this is better than just putting the pier blocks on the dirt.

[JimmyHoffa]

When putting my safe in the house vs garage, I used pieces of 1x12 to expand the base to distribute the force more uniformly on the floor.  Also put it near a corner.  Trying to haul it up a flight of stairs sucked.  Probably went overboard on the amount of expanded base though, thinking back about how much total area a 4-post bed transfers its weight to and remembered some of the girls my old roommate brought home---figure a gunsafe would be just fine.

[marlin]

thinking back about how much total area a 4-post bed transfers its weight to and remembered some of the girls my old roommate brought home---figure a gunsafe would be just fine.
chubby chasin roomate huh? thats funny

[ICEMAN]

Purchase two concrete pier blocks with brackets that adjust to height simply by turning a bolt with a crescent wrench. Buy enough 4inch by 4inch pressure treated fence post material needed to reach from the pier blocks to the flooring above. Tack a six foot long piece of the 4x4 post material across a few floor joist under your safe, this is your "helper beam". Slide your pier blocks under the helper beam, and cut two posts to reach from pier block to beam. Cut and install, then start turning your two bolts to tighen the whole thing in place. Cheap, easy, effective.

Do not put your pier blocks on the dirt. They will just be forced into the ground. You need to either put a concrete pad or put 4X4's on the ground. The 4X4's will eventually rot but this is better than just putting the pier blocks on the dirt.

Uhhhh, the pier blocks on dirt are more than sufficient to help the extra load on the floor under a safe. Most post and beam homes have this under their beam runs, nothing more.   This is not a load bearing portion of the home and will suffice.

Note; I am talking about a 12" by 12" concrete pierblock with bracket, the same pierblocks most exterior decks sit on... Very substantial.

[allen]

Something else to think about when deciding where to locate a safe is in the event of a fire.  Safes are fire resistant up to whatever temp it's rated for only for a certain period of time.  With that in mind remember inside areas of the home burn at a hotter temp & for a longer period of time than outside wall areas do.  Also the safe may be fire resistant but probably not waterproof so think about where the safe might end up as a result of a fire.  If possible you wouldn't want it to fall into a depression area where fire hose water would collect.

[purplecowboy]

Quote from: purplecowboy on Yesterday at 09:54:01 AM

    Quote

        Purchase two concrete pier blocks with brackets that adjust to height simply by turning a bolt with a crescent wrench. Buy enough 4inch by 4inch pressure treated fence post material needed to reach from the pier blocks to the flooring above. Tack a six foot long piece of the 4x4 post material across a few floor joist under your safe, this is your "helper beam". Slide your pier blocks under the helper beam, and cut two posts to reach from pier block to beam. Cut and install, then start turning your two bolts to tighen the whole thing in place. Cheap, easy, effective.

    Do not put your pier blocks on the dirt. They will just be forced into the ground. You need to either put a concrete pad or put 4X4's on the ground. The 4X4's will eventually rot but this is better than just putting the pier blocks on the dirt.

Uhhhh, the pier blocks on dirt are more than sufficient to help the extra load on the floor under a safe. Most post and beam homes have this under their beam runs, nothing more.   This is not a load bearing portion of the home and will suffice.

Note; I am talking about a 12" by 12" concrete pierblock with bracket, the same pierblocks most exterior decks sit on... Very substantial.

I don't know where you live but if you live anywhere there is the slightest quake threat DON'T put the pier blocks on the dirt. Our neighbors house was built with pier blocks supporting the porch and second floor overhang and when the quake hit several years ago the soil under the blocks liquified and they almost lost the house. It only costs a few dollars more to be extra safe. And it depends on your location it might also be building code. When I had my deck replaced the builder said that putting pads under the pier blocks that supported the deck was required by county building code. We live in Snohomish County.

[Alchase]

The only reason I don't have a gun safe is getting it into the basement. That is where I want it. 500lbs will be a little more than I can handle on my own down a flight of stairs. You guys have any tricks for moving a safe?

A really strong dolly, a couple of friends, let the dolly do the work. I found it easier when going down stairs after the first couple steps to lay the dolly on the back bars. They cover a couple stairs at a time and all you have to do is guide it down. Up stairs you need to keep it close to the balance point when you lean it back, then lift from both ends, lol. If you stairs a straight you can even tip the safe back onto the stairs and slide it up. We did this and did not hurt the carpet at all.

[JimmyHoffa]

For stairs I didn't have anyone to help carry down, so I hooked the safe to a come-along.  Then attached the come-along to an object that was too wide to get through the door.  Once that was set up, just lowered it bit by bit.

[ICEMAN]

Quote from: purplecowboy on Yesterday at 09:54:01 AM

    Quote

        Purchase two concrete pier blocks with brackets that adjust to height simply by turning a bolt with a crescent wrench. Buy enough 4inch by 4inch pressure treated fence post material needed to reach from the pier blocks to the flooring above. Tack a six foot long piece of the 4x4 post material across a few floor joist under your safe, this is your "helper beam". Slide your pier blocks under the helper beam, and cut two posts to reach from pier block to beam. Cut and install, then start turning your two bolts to tighen the whole thing in place. Cheap, easy, effective.

    Do not put your pier blocks on the dirt. They will just be forced into the ground. You need to either put a concrete pad or put 4X4's on the ground. The 4X4's will eventually rot but this is better than just putting the pier blocks on the dirt.

Uhhhh, the pier blocks on dirt are more than sufficient to help the extra load on the floor under a safe. Most post and beam homes have this under their beam runs, nothing more.   This is not a load bearing portion of the home and will suffice.

Note; I am talking about a 12" by 12" concrete pierblock with bracket, the same pierblocks most exterior decks sit on... Very substantial.

I don't know where you live but if you live anywhere there is the slightest quake threat DON'T put the pier blocks on the dirt. Our neighbors house was built with pier blocks supporting the porch and second floor overhang and when the quake hit several years ago the soil under the blocks liquified and they almost lost the house. It only costs a few dollars more to be extra safe. And it depends on your location it might also be building code. When I had my deck replaced the builder said that putting pads under the pier blocks that supported the deck was required by county building code. We live in Snohomish County.

I was a general contractor for ten years and worked in the constructin business for 20 years. We raised and leveled existing structures as well as new construction. The reason for the extra block or pour under the pier block is to get the footing down below the point where frost upheaval will not be a factor. Most single story homes set their interior floor supports on nothing more than a 12", 14" or 16" concrete blocks or pads. They are already low enough for frost upheaval concerns since they are already at footer level in the crawl. 

[400out]

  I still don't know why he hasn't answered my question  Does he really have a lumber constructed basement  would be a first for me.

[addicted]

This one looks pretty nifty in addition to a large safe.

[trippledigitss]

Quote from: purplecowboy on Yesterday at 09:54:01 AM

    Quote

        Purchase two concrete pier blocks with brackets that adjust to height simply by turning a bolt with a crescent wrench. Buy enough 4inch by 4inch pressure treated fence post material needed to reach from the pier blocks to the flooring above. Tack a six foot long piece of the 4x4 post material across a few floor joist under your safe, this is your "helper beam". Slide your pier blocks under the helper beam, and cut two posts to reach from pier block to beam. Cut and install, then start turning your two bolts to tighen the whole thing in place. Cheap, easy, effective.

    Do not put your pier blocks on the dirt. They will just be forced into the ground. You need to either put a concrete pad or put 4X4's on the ground. The 4X4's will eventually rot but this is better than just putting the pier blocks on the dirt.

Uhhhh, the pier blocks on dirt are more than sufficient to help the extra load on the floor under a safe. Most post and beam homes have this under their beam runs, nothing more.   This is not a load bearing portion of the home and will suffice.

Note; I am talking about a 12" by 12" concrete pierblock with bracket, the same pierblocks most exterior decks sit on... Very substantial.

I don't know where you live but if you live anywhere there is the slightest quake threat DON'T put the pier blocks on the dirt. Our neighbors house was built with pier blocks supporting the porch and second floor overhang and when the quake hit several years ago the soil under the blocks liquified and they almost lost the house. It only costs a few dollars more to be extra safe. And it depends on your location it might also be building code. When I had my deck replaced the builder said that putting pads under the pier blocks that supported the deck was required by county building code. We live in Snohomish County.

I was a general contractor for ten years and worked in the constructin business for 20 years. We raised and leveled existing structures as well as new construction. The reason for the extra block or pour under the pier block is to get the footing down below the point where frost upheaval will not be a factor. Most single story homes set their interior floor supports on nothing more than a 12", 14" or 16" concrete blocks or pads. They are already low enough for frost upheaval concerns since they are already at footer level in the crawl. 

This is partially true on both sides. The footing does have to be below the local frost depth per the IRC as adopted by Wa St Bldg Code. In reality, a 12x pier pad is sufficient enough to carry a tributary load such as this case, basically additional support to the existing floor construction. However, 12x pier pads are not approved to carry most loads in single family wood frame construction, with the exception of small decks with short spans (refer to mybuildingpermit.com) But again, that being said they would work fine for what you have proposed. Liquefaction would occur and undermine ANY size footing, its affect depends more on the type of soil # 1, and type, depth, duration of the seismic event - vs load applied to the footing- so even soils under a 4'x4'x2' pad could liquefy. Where I would disagree with Iceman is on the size of the header beam, or what he called "helper beam" I would use at least a 4x6 vs 4x4 as a 4x face is simply not deep enough to withstand a substantial load w/o deflecting. But again, for what we are talking here it would work fine.

But all this really doesnt matter until we know the type of floor framing - is it solid sawn 2x joists at 16 centers? TJI joists? 5/4 car decking on beams at 4' centers? I think no matter the type, 700# over a 3' square area in a corner will be safe (no pun intended) from structural standpoint.

[fish vacuum]

I weigh almost 250lbs. If I had a similar sized friend over and we stood next to each other, our total weight would be almost 500lbs and our combined footprint would be smaller than a 500lbs safe.
Hell, I know a guy who used to weigh almost 500lbs. His footprint was much smaller than any safe.

[Snopczynski]

Usually up to a 1500lbs. safe is fine on a ground floor without any shoring up. The weight is spread out on the footprint.

[luv2hunt]

Worst case scenario is it falls through and you have a new end table . Sorry couldn't resist. On a serious note, I was in the same boat as the OP and didn't reinforce the floor with a 800lb safe empty. I have 2x10 joists and it's against a wall, It's been 5 years and no sag in the floor at all.