WDFW survey

[CP]

If you haven’t already, ML hunters should take the WDFW survey.  There are quite a few questions on ML seasons and equipment.  Changes in the regs are apparently coming and we all should have our opinions heard.


http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=Vb_2f37XGr4hzTOY4Yl2IunA_3d_3d

[Crunchy]

I just finished with the survey.  Although I am not a ML hunter I agree you guys get the short end of the stick.  The only thing I felt strongly about was no Techno type advances to the guns.

[Sagedawg]

Just read through and took the survey. Sure are putting out alot of options.I wonder if they are opening a can of worms?


  Sage

[lee]

Dun done it!   

[mtndew]

I filled it out this weekend. Lots of possible changes for muzzleloaders. Everyone should put in their 

[robb92]

I just finished it. I see no problem allowing a hunter to use a ml with a 209 system or using s scope. Just because you have it doesn't mean you are going to fill your tag. I think the game department needs to update their way of thinking in regards to the advances in the hunting industry as a whole. As I said before just because you have it does not mean you will always fill your tag. I've got an inline that shoots a 209 and it has a scope, have I shot an animal with it NOPE.

[Curly]

I filled out the survey a couple weeks ago.  I don't think they should allow the use of scopes.

Actually, the way the rules are now seem ok; I would like a few more seasons and units to hunt though.

[GoldTip]

I filled it out, even thought I do not Muzzle loader hunt, I have a few elderly patients who do, and they have a hard time with open sights and a getting a good sight picture.  I think the Muzzy hunters should be allowed to use scopes, though nothing greater than 2 power, this would help those with deficient or aging eye sight.

[kirkl]

I filled it out and said more gmus but no changes to the ML itself. 

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

No changes, the reason we have what we do is hunter participation. We switched to ML years ago to get away from crazy rifle hunters Note:(not all rifle hunters are crazy).

These are ML people not rifles. If they go to 209 and and scopes they need a traditional season. Where traditional archers and ML get there own seasons. Hunting with a ML with a scope and hotter primers is just like hunting with a rifle. 250-300 yard shots with a ML is stupid and ignorant.

I guess this is what people want. To hunt with greater ability with less competition, that is why they want these new laws. Older generation want less competition than they would get in the rifle season, so if they fight to get scopes allowed to a traditional weapon they can get away from crowds, sorry traditional weapons didn't have scopes.

Just like the mentality of most of us americans, want more with less work.

[GoldTip]

WDFW hates me, so after spending the next 30 years hunting with a Muzzy and developing a love for it, when your eyesight starts to fail and you can't get a good sight picture with open sights, you planning to just give it up and go back to Modern firearm?  Not trying to start a pissing match here, just playing the devils advocate.

[bobcat]

When your eyesight gets to where you can't focus on your rear sight, all you need to do is switch to a peep sight. No need for a scope. Scopes just don't belong on muzzleloaders, plain and simple.

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

I tell you what, in 30 years if we still have hunting i will still be hunting with a ML. If i physicaly can not hunt with it i will switch to a method i can hunt with. Sorry but i do not need the rules changed for me because i can't hunt the way i used to. Hunting should not progress, that is not what it is about. Hunting is a way for people to be in the outdoors sharing the heritage with family and friends. I do not care if i see a B&C bull or a B&C deer, io shoot the first legal animal i have a tag for. That is what i am out there for. Remember it is about the hunt, not the kill...

If they made it 65 and over with a sight imparement i might agree to it, but it opens to many doors if they make it a blanket rule.
Remember change the laws for the few but they affect the masses.

And i am not trying to start a pissing match, and i play devils advocate every now and then, but i get tired of people trying to change a traditional weapon to a modern  one when that was not the intent of the seasons set for them.

[kirkl]

I agree WDFW, I say if they went with 209 and scopes they might at well scrap the ML season and just have a rifle/ML season and you can hunt with either one.  There already getting some good distances with those inlines.  I have a traditional with sidelock my grandpa gave to me. There would be alot of people switch to ML if they went with 209, closed to the elements and scopes.  Suppose to be a traditional weapon. Just my 

[MIKEXRAY]

I agree also. keep it traditional.

[GoldTip]

Look I agree, I do not want to see the muzzle loader change to be nothing more than a long range single shot firearm that is loaded from the front.  But if you guys wanna keep screaming keep it traditional, then why the inlines at all?  Why the legalization of pelletized powder and saboted bullets?  The fact of the matter is hunting has progressed and many people switched to Muzzleloader seasons due to the decreased pressure and people in the woods.  Remember 30 years ago when they made the switch, there were probably fewer rifle hunters at that time than there are muzzle loader hunters now, and maybe thats why they made the switch, hell maybe thats why you guys made the switch.  And in 30 years there will probably be as many Muzzy hunters as there are currently rifle hunters.  The point is despite not wanting hunting to progress it does, also just that simple.  I didn't say anything about enclosed 209 primers and I am not advocating using a leupy 3x9.  Simply a form of sighting which does little to "magnify" the site picture and yet puts the sighting on the same plane, thats all.  Just my 

[scudmaster]

I filled it out, even thought I do not Muzzle loader hunt, I have a few elderly patients who do, and they have a hard time with open sights and a getting a good sight picture.  I think the Muzzy hunters should be allowed to use scopes, though nothing greater than 2 power, this would help those with deficient or aging eye sight.

Just finished the Survey. 

GoldTip have your patients looked in to getting a disabled hunter exemption to allow for optics on their ML?  I don't know how bad their vision is, but it is something to suggest.

[Curly]

GoldTip have your patients looked in to getting a disabled hunter exemption to allow for optics on their ML?  I don't know how bad their vision is, but it is something to suggest.

Yeah that........or like Bobcat suggested; they should try a peep sight.

I first started ML hunting for elk over 20 years ago because I wanted to get away from the crowds, but what I found was the crowds were bad w/ ML elk hunting too because of the small amount of units that were open.  It concentrated all the ML hunters into a very small area. 

I did it for a few years and then went back to rifle hunting.  I'm now back ML hunting because they have more units now.  I'd hate to see them change the ML rules which would cause more people to take it up.  That's why I want the rules to remain the same as they are but to just add even more units.

[MountainWalk]

i prefer they keep it trad. no 209 or scopes. peeps are great on powder guns.

[scudmaster]

I first started ML hunting for elk over 20 years ago because I wanted to get away from the crowds, but what I found was the crowds were bad w/ ML elk hunting too because of the small amount of units that were open.  It concentrated all the ML hunters into a very small area. 

I did it for a few years and then went back to rifle hunting.  I'm now back ML hunting because they have more units now.  I'd hate to see them change the ML rules which would cause more people to take it up.  That's why I want the rules to remain the same as they are but to just add even more units.
[/quote]

Interesting perspective on too many areas open and I guess the same applies in having the ML get too modern.  Makes me think differently about some issues.  Thanks for the thoughts.

[HntnFsh]

Start allowing scopes,209 primers etc.A lot of people will be giving up modern to hunt m/l.Think the crowds are bad now.If that happens itll be as bad as rifle season.

In fact if it did happen I may just go back to rifle for elk.

[Head-shot]

I did the survey, and I think WDFW said thanks by not drawing me for any tags.

[marc10000]

I would like to see the rules changed. I think that we as hunters deserve to be able to use the gear that all the manufacturers are offering. The same gear that is in use on the east coast and down south. All the major companies have moved past the legal technology that WA state hunters use. The only weapons we can use are the ones that are discontinued or don't sell elsewhere.

A muzzle loader is a muzzle loader whether it be 209, musket, or #11 cap. I've tried them all and there is really isn't that much of an advantage. To me it's about choice in gear. It's about this style of hunting being a hobby and being able to use good equipment.

The thing to remember is all these rifles are single shot. All these rifles shoot about the same arc of trajectory. It takes just as long to reload one of these guns whether it's a Hawken or a TC Encore. With our damp weather it's a severe penalty having to keep primer exposed to the elements. I think it's time for this state to reevaluate it's stupid regs. Not everybody wants to play Daniel Boone or Davey Crockett. I don't mean that in a bad way. I just think reading the responses here there are a lot of people that have selfish reasons for keeping things the way they currently are.

I don't have an opinion on scopes. I'm not arguing for scopes, just the right to buy a decent state of the art muzzle loader to hunt with.

Just to add a little more: Most everybody I talk to has some little trick to get around the regs anyway. People use nail polish on primers, balloons on barrels. saran wrap around nipples, you name it. You all know it's true. Nobody can carry a sidelock or an open inline in a hard rain and expect it to shoot for any length of time. I mean who are we kidding?

Now I would never do anything like that.

The sad part is I checked on using one of my ML 209 rifles in the modern season. I thought I would put a scope on it and use jacketed bullets seeing how I had put so much money into it and really enjoyed using it, but what I found out was if you use a ML in the modern season then you still have to abide by normal ML rules. Outrageous!!!!

[KillBilly]

Quote from Marc10000

"Just to add a little more: Most everybody I talk to has some little trick to get around the regs anyway. People use nail polish on primers, balloons on barrels. saran wrap around nipples, you name it. You all know it's true. Nobody can carry a sidelock or an open inline in a hard rain and expect it to shoot for any length of time. I mean who are we kidding?"


All the little tricks that Dan Boone, Jeramiah Johnson, and thousands had to use. They had to keep their powder and primers dry because they couldn't complain about no being able to use a 209. That's what muzzle loader hunting is all about in this state. You could go to the state that allows them and live and hunt there.

[marc10000]

Right, like Daniel Boone climbed out of his 35' fifth wheel trailer with satellite dish to scare up some grub. If you aren't leaving the cap exposed to the elements then you are illegal, plain and simple.

[Curly]

Marc, when its raining I just wear a poncho and keep my ML under the poncho................it stays dry until I have to take the rifle out from under my poncho if I need to shoot; then it is not exposed long enough to matter.

Anyway, I think it is a little different to use a ML with some little trick to keep the nipple covered vs. using an inline that is manufactured so that there is virtually no way for water to get in and make the powder wet so that it doesn't fire.  That is part of the challenge of ML hunting.

[marc10000]

I agree with that, completely.

In western WA though the season really falls during a rainy period every year. It could rain everyday for a week. It could rain the whole season. That's all I'm saying. The Jeremiah Johnsons never had to deal with the continual deluge that becomes western WA in December.

I own a Great Plains Rifle and a Deerstalker and love to take them out when the weathers good. But if it gets really socked in would be nice to go to something more suitable. I've lost too many good days of hunting to the weather.

It is a challenge and I appreciate what you are saying. I'm just one that hopes that the rules get changed. Most of the inlines that are legal in this state and have been legal now have been discontinued by the makers. They have been moved here by the big chain stores to get rid of them. Soon it may even be that they will no longer be any available.

The TC Black Diamond and Several Traditions models are no longer being made. There just isn't enough money in it for the handful of states that have the primitive type rules. Someone was saying 10,000 hunters in this state. Most of them already have guns.

It's not just the rain, it's the dampness and the condensation. I've tried hunting hard in the rain. Even with the poncho it's a losing battle the more days that go by and it continues to drizzle.

[CP]

It is difficult to find an inline that isn't a 209 rifle these days. 

[CP]

My main input on the survey is they need to open up more opportunities for ML hunters.  Over half of the eastside GMUs are closed to us and there are only a few special permits available.  I’d really like to hunt Entiat or Pasayten, why can’t I?

[Curly]

You guys are correct about not being able to find an inline that is currently in production that is legal in this state.  I really wouldn't mind if they made all inlines illegal even though I finally broke down and bought an Austin & Halleck last year when they were getting rid of the last of their rifles.  The inlines are a little more reliable for firing in our wet W Wa weather, even with the nipple exposed to the elements.  If inlines were to become illegal here, then I would just have to use my old 54 cal Renegade.

[ThePascoKid]

This will be my 6th year hunting ML deer and I don't think scopes should be allowed but I don't understand why certain bullets can't be used, if there is a better bullet out there that will shoot more accurate and perform better why wouldn't the state allow its use shouldn't they be promoting cleaner humane kills.  My biggest beef with ML hunting is the lack of GMU's we need more if they opened up more GMU's we wouldn't need a longer season thereby interfering with archery.

[KillBilly]

Right, like Daniel Boone climbed out of his 35' fifth wheel trailer with satellite dish to scare up some grub. If you aren't leaving the cap exposed to the elements then you are illegal, plain and simple.

It is perfectly legal to use all the tricks that our ancestors used to keep caps dry. A flap of leather, a little grease, etc. all perfectly legal.

[Sagedawg]

 Curly, the knight bighorn is still in production and legal to hunt with in Washington. They come with all 3 ingition types so all you need to do is put the one in for musket caps or #11's.




   Sage

[scudmaster]

There are still a few good options for in-lines, but the pickins are slim.   As sagedawg said Knight brought back the Bighorn.  Also Sportsman's Warehouse made a special order of rifles (I forget the model) that were originally designed for a 209 and had them fitted for percussion caps. I am introducing a friend to muzzle loading this year and he was having a had time finding a legal rifle to hunt with. 

Anyone had better luck with musket caps on damp weather?

[Curly]

Yeah, I wish I would have bought the Bighorn last year instead of the A&H.  I bought the A&H last summer as they were selling off the last of their inventory at cheap prices.  I had trouble with ignition issues and couldn't get help from the manufacturer since they were closing their doors.  I finally ended up getting it worked out, but it took a bunch of time and trial and error to get the musket caps to fire.  I started wondering why I even bothered getting an inline instead of just using my sidelock that I've had for 20 years.

It worked out in the end and I did kill a cow elk with a double lung shot at about 110 yards or so; but I wish I had gotten the Bighorn so that I could get parts in the future if needed.

I used to use #11's on my Renegade and then switched to Musket caps.  I feel like the musket caps should be a little better in our damp weather.  I did have a misfire w/ #11's once with a cow broadside at about 10 yards.  After I switched to musket caps I did kill a buck while hunting in the rain.  Musket caps are hotter, so maybe they will give a little help in damp weather.

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

I would rather see them ban inlines than let all the high tech in.

[MountainWalk]

Here is what I wonder.. If all these folks who tout the inlines  are constantly saying,, there is no real advantage over a traditional cap lock,, then why even buy them or use them? Of course there is an advantage.  The way I see it,, if you want pellet powder, shotgun primer ignition and scopes, might as well hunt modern rifle.  Its weird.. everyone talks about the challenge of muzzleloading, but do everything possible to negate all the challenges involved. If it were up to me, it would be side lock only.

[CP]

I could live with side lock only.  I’d even go for round ball only.  It would be real lonely in woods during ML season. 

[marc10000]

My Brother hunts Elk in New Mexico on Mt Taylor, it is a special draw Bow hunt. They got a 5X5 down there a couple years ago. They took it in to the butcher and he said he dug 3 round balls out of it. Butcher says he see's it all the time in the Elk that come off that Mountain.

[MountainWalk]

Im sure he has. But for those three roundballs, are scores of broadheads, buckshot, bullets.  Round balls kill pretty decent for me.

[CP]

Mt Taylor near Grants NM?  Nice country around there.  I used to hunt the Gila to the South of there and around Tularosa.

[marc10000]

Yeah same place. Parents had property by Bluewater Lake near Grants.