Four point minimum 117&121

[colockumelk]

Muleyguy couldn't have said it better myself.  All of the APR's for both elk and deer are just kicking the can down the road. We ALL need to face the unfortunate truth. That sooner or later our OTC hunting will be no more.  We can't maintain it. And our first priority isn't how many animals we can harvest its the health of the herds we hunt. Although with a healthy herd comes more opportunity.

[bobcat]

If I could appoint muleyguy as Director of the WDFW, I would. Colockumelk you'd be my second choice.   

[Glockster]

The problem with these kind of things with WDFW is that once a restriction gets in place it never, ever changes.....

3Pt for all of eWA muledeer went into effect after the bad winter of '96 in an effort to build herds back. Now there are plenty of muley bucks of all ages in most units (with the notable exception of the Yakima and Colockum herds).  We have had that restriction for 15yrs and countless young hunters are not killing their first bucks because of it. 

Trophy hunting by its nature is a very selfish pursuit which is detrimental to a positive future for decent general population public hunting opportunity in WA.

[Machias Bowhunter]

I havent read this whole thread but have seen a couple of things about buck to doe ratio. We do need to increase this i do agree, but I feel the WDFW have dropped the ball by taking the ability of bow hunters to take does and not even giving them any tags to draw for does, but have given 50 plus doe tags to muzzleloaders and about the same for modern. If you want to build a herd up whay are you allowing hunters with weapons that can shoot accurately from 150 to 200 or more yards but not to the one weapon that has a range of about 45 -50 yrds max, makes no sense.

[724wd]

we can shoot does december 10th - 15.     dumb.  i'll probably end up STILL shooting a doe, just like i would have opening day!  i've been hunting with my 4 year old daughter in the blind, and our 4 points aren't coming in until well after dark.  except the one that the trespasser probably shot at!   

[bornforhorns]

I haven't read all the post but a majority of them, and I am first of all impressed by this threads conversation and absence of arguing.  I'm seasonal on this site and usually stop looking after the season...I think we all get "sour" and bored and start looking for something to fight about.  I'm a teacher of 15 years, a former biologist of the WDFW out of school for 4 years and have thought about this topic until I thought I had exhausted all options.  I love this state and it's hunting and therefore will always be optimistic...THERE IS NO OTHER STATE IN THE LOWER 48 LIKE IT FOR DIVERSITY.  So... it wasn't until the last day of the general mule deer season in NCW this year when a lightning bolt hit me, I really started thinking outside the box.  I first of all like opportunity, I do trophy hunt, I also meat hunt some years and I do believe there's room for both.  Now for my idea which focuses on the quality experience and draw tags.  The fact will always be it's easier to "manage people than it is to manage wildlife", if we can do that successfully and always provide opportunity we might find a good balance of quality hunting and quality wildlife.  I'll just say I never want to go to draw only.

1.)  I think they should split the hunting population in two groups and start a rotation. "Odds" and "evens" if you will (by your wild id #).  This split will dictate everything but you still get to hunt every year. Make seasonal adjustments accordingly by species but I'm using the most sensitive of the three in Mule Deer, this could be used for elk too but not sure it would be needed for species like bear, cougar, small game, etc. . This rule includes all weapon types.

2.)  Split the general season's.  early general season (2nd week of October, 9 days) and a late season (3rd week of October, 9 days).  Same number man days but 1/2 the number in the field for your hunt.  Obvious pros/cons but remember it's only for one year and than you flip; early season= first chance, less likely to get cold weather.  late season=fewer animals by way of harvest, better hunting weather.  It's hard to predict weather but this is what we try to do every year in planning our hunts.

3.)  You also do the draw permits by odds and evens (say the early season guys are the ones elgible for draw permits one year and they flip flop the next year).  If the WDFW is concerned about losing revenue you allow people to apply for "ghost" permits on their "off" year to increase their chance for their "on" year, don't complain we all put in for ghost permits after getting drawn for the next 10+years again'st the same or more applicants from the year before. Pros=you compete again'st half the applicants and % of successful applicants go to zero points faster, increasing odds further for your "on" year. Cons=you can't get drawn every year but seriously, get real.

4.)  Let the Bios. do their jobs in managing antler restrictions, population dynamics, predators etc., with continuing conversations and input from the public as assistance.  Allow for catastrophic event adjustments and so on using good science for healthy herds.

A good friend asked: "what about if me and Dad get drawn for opposite seasons because of our numbers"?

I thought, "that would be perfect, now you get twice the opportunity to help each other out" but it maybe a problem in getting time off.  Maybe a rule that "immediate family" members be either odds or evens could be adopted...really a small price to pay for the rewards though.

Coolest attractions: 1/2 the number of hunters in the field at one given time.  1/2 the number of applicants elgible for special draw permits in any given year, ie: it would work like this-my last wild id # is a "7", the start of this calendar hunting year was 2011...I would hunt the early general season but would be elgible for the draw my "on" year.  The following year 2012 would be my "off" year, but I could apply for ghost points... maybe even right at the counter when the clerk looks up wild id #, include it in the license cost...done deal!  Who knows it might even speed up the drawing process since your essentially eliminating half the applicants as elgible. 

Incentives could be offered for youth, seniors, handicapped accordingly.


I've seen some other great ideas on this post, what do you think? It may need to be tweaked but I think it would be a great start. 

Let's please stay away from a "true draw" system like Oregon and other states.  Which brings up the nonresident issue...same rules would apply, once your assigned a wild id # it sticks with you for life so you can't shop seasons.

Thanks,

Todd

[Sitka_Blacktail]

There is a ton of biology behind the antler point regulation. 

Both for and against.

   There are dry does running around that should be covered- the problem is that the ratio is too high. 
 

The fix is to shoot all the mature bucks this year, and allow all the yearlings to do the breeding?

The antler pt restriction will increase escapement of young bucks, which turn into mature bucks and are more effective breeders. 
 

So shoot the "mature effective breeders", but leave the young ones so they can grow up to be the "mature breeders" that we culled from the herd...  Got it.

Thought this was a good time to re-visit this subject and Miles' is one of the many on this thread I agree with.  Does it make sense to hammer the large mature bucks pre rut and leave all the younger ones to do the breeding?

I've seen comments that claim this restriction is going to protect the large bucks that breed. Is it really? If that's all that is legal to hunt, how does that protect them. And if the season is pre rut, how do they breed when they are already dead?

I've seen comments that claim this is going to help build the herd. But the herd is already rebuilding it's self. why does it need help? Go back to 97 and 2010 harvest stats look awesome. Compared to the high in 2006 maybe not so awesome, but they don't seem to be in any trouble.

I saw a comment by WAcoyotehunter that stated Pennsylvania had good success with APR. But he didn't mention that they had a different problem than these areas have. They have a huge hunting base in Pennsylvania. The bucks there get hunted so hard that not many bucks grow old. They had the classic "way too many does and not enough mature bucks" syndrome. When that happens, then it makes sense to limit the kill of young bucks and cull a bunch of the does to bring the herd back into balance. But it's not a long term solution. And that wasn't the case in units 117 and 121. They had had a mild setback caused by a couple bad winters. And the bucks/doe ratios were fairly balanced and the age composition of the bucks harvested was balanced. So now you create a rule that takes out your large breeders before they get a chance to breed?

Now I saw a comment by Bear Paw in a newspaper article in which he "cites changes in Pennsylvania whitetail regulations in the early 2000s -- a 4-point rule and more antlerless permits.

“I’ve thoroughly researched this, and the consensus is it’s turned their hunt around. They now have a smaller but more productive whitetail herd. The doe-buck ratio is sound, the fawns are coming off on time, and hunters are now shooting bigger bucks.”

Hmmmm a smaller more productive herd? I thought this rule was meant to increase the herd, not make it smaller. And as I pointed out, IT"S NOT A LONG TERM SOLUTION! Don't believe me? Well here's an article you might find interesting. 

http://blog.pennlive.com/pa-sportsman/2010/01/angry_deer_hunters_on_pennsylvania_game_commissions_agenda.html

And a quote from that article......

"Bill Miller, chairman of the board of trustees of Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, has called for “a very large turnout” of dissatisfied deer hunters at the first day of the upcoming meeting of Pennsylvania Board of Game Commissioners on Sunday, Jan. 24.
deer.jpgThe Associated Press

“The PGC must hear from everyone regarding their failed deer management,” he wrote on USP’s web site, describing the 2009-10 deer hunting season as “the worst deer hunting season in memory.”"

Wow..... weren't we told by WAcoyote hunter and Bear Paw about how good deer hunting is now in Pennsylvania now that the Point restrictions were implemented there?

[huntnnw]

Comparing PA to WA is apples to Oranges... the pressure in those units is minuscule to the state of PA.  The hunting south of the Spokane river is not even comparable to the hunting in the units up north.  They have had a 3pt min in effect for years and its noticeably better hunting hands down. I can just drive around the areas south of town and see 10-20 bucks in a hour or 2 during the rut chasing does...hell you would be lucky to see a a handful of bucks the whole rut driving around up north. I lived in 121 for years I know the herd is hurting.

[muleyguy]

the pressure in those units is minuscule to the state of PA

that is correct, but that does not paint the right picture;   PA does have a huge amount of hunting pressure, BUT, they have a huge amount of excess does in the population so a lot of this excess hunting pressure is sucked up by the high doe harvests.  In 2010 PA harvest 193,000 does and 122,000 bucks;  the reason the APR's work a little better (not much) in the Eastern US herds is because the habitat is so productive and they have no predators.  APR's were put into effect in the East to incentivize people to shoot does.  In the Eastern APR's hunters have an option to shoot either 4pt or better bucks OR a doe.  So, the shooting of the does takes a lot of the excess pressure off of the mature buck population.  Many people will simply opt to shoot a doe;  that option to shoot a doe is the critical one, that, everybody around here is not understanding.

Contrast that with units 117 and 121;  there is not an excess of does, there is a shortage of does;  so there is no "doe option" or very, very little option;  so ALL of the pressure is directed to the mature buck population.

The pressure in 117 and 121 is NOT minuscule ;in 2010, units 117 and 121 had a total of 56,000 hunter days worth of hunting pressure, there isn't a unit in the state anywhere close to that much pressure;  117 and 121 get hammered with hunter pressure.  And, the vast majority of the hunting pressure will be directed towards mature bucks now because that is the only harvest option.  121 alone had 31,000 hunter days in 2010!

They have had a 3pt min in effect for years and its noticeably better hunting hands down. I can just drive around the areas south of town and see 10-20 bucks

The effect of the APR in that unit will not be as damaging because the hunting pressure is radically less;  In 2010 that unit only had 7,700 hunter days;  The other problem is that in 121 not only does it have 450% more hunting pressure then 127, most of that hunting pressure is directed towards public land;  that is not the case in 127;  127 is mostly private land with adispersed out hunting pressure.

APR's will increase the buck population, that is not in question;  the problem is that it protects the 1.5 yr old buck population at the expense of the older population;  but, even then, it only protects it temporarily;  every APR study indicates that the majority of those bucks are just shot when they are 2.5 yr old bucks;  in the East, they have shown some very slightly better buck escapement out of the 2.5 yr old class, but, once again, that is MOST LIKELY because they have the "doe option".  With the extreme hunting pressure that 117 and 121 get, coupled with the general late season, I can pretty much guarantee you that you will not see much buck escapment out of the 2.5 yr old class.

So, you are setting up for a situation in those units where the vast majority of the buck population, post harvest, is 1.5 yr old and 2.5 yr old bucks, and, declining populations of 3.5 and older bucks.

The negative effects of the APR in 127 is simply muted because of the lack of hunting pressure, and the land ownership structure. 

[huntnnw]

lack of hunting pressure right I am 110% positive there is far greater pressure in 127 during archery season than all of the combined in 121..u have no idea how many people archery hunt this area its staggering!! areas that in 2 mi sq have 100 bait sites going. i go north to get away from pressure! I was in the said units this past rifle season and saw major public lands void of hunters that always had pressure years ago. Numbers are quite decieving and not truth telling

[Sitka_Blacktail]

i go north to get away from pressure! I was in the said units this past rifle season and saw major public lands void of hunters that always had pressure years ago.

Now why do you suppose that was?  I for one hunted 111 and 113 this year because I didn't care to hunt in a 4 pt unit. I talked with at least three different groups who told me they used to hunt in 121 but left it because of the 4 pt rule.  So part of what you saw was due to this rule, not due to lack of deer.

[huntnnw]

   What I want here

[buckcanyonlodge]

If the 4-point restriction increases the deer herd , why not make the whole state 4-point or better?? Mule deer and blacktail included.


IT'S THE DOES STUPID!!!!  We need more does to increase the herd. Ask our top biologist Jerry Nelson. Or our local biologist Dana Base. I have and they have both told me the only thing the 4 point restriction will do is increase the number of two year old bucks.
PERIOD.

[huntnnw]

I agree that there should be no doe permits in certain areas, but when the deer numbers were up in those units the buck to doe ratio was horrible!! fields with 50 does and 6 bucks was the norm for most ag areas

[WAcoyotehunter]

i go north to get away from pressure! I was in the said units this past rifle season and saw major public lands void of hunters that always had pressure years ago.

Now why do you suppose that was?  I for one hunted 111 and 113 this year because I didn't care to hunt in a 4 pt unit. I talked with at least three different groups who told me they used to hunt in 121 but left it because of the 4 pt rule.  So part of what you saw was due to this rule, not due to lack of deer.

What are you proposing then?  Should we all sit by and watch the deer herds decline?  You're doing a good job of whining and pointing fingers, but you haven't mentioned many solutions.   If you think the deer herds here are healthy and robust, then it's clear that you haven't spent much time in the area.