Four point minimum 117&121

[AKBowman]

i wish this would go statewide except for youth , disabled, and the seniors.. and of course this is my opinion,

I hope you mean statewide for WT's! I would like to see most of the west side units go two point min for modern and any buck for archery.

[buckfvr]

I would love to see alot more competition amongst the bucks for the breeding.  MOre rubs, more scrapes, more fighting........does being bred in a timeley manner. 
To see june, july and even august newborns is not good......july newborns struggle to make the first winter, august newbies dont usually make it.  They might this year, whats left of them.....we see them born, and we know when they disappear.....coyotes hunt them relentlesly.  In the last few days I have seen 3 incidents of coyotes chasing deer, behind posted signs....their private deer killing sanctuaries.

[muleyguy]

I would love to see alot more competition amongst the bucks for the breeding.

well, if your goal is to stockpile 1.5 and 2.5 yr old deer in the population, and make this group of bucks the dominant age class, then this regulation will certainly achieve that......

does being bred in a timeley manner.  To see june, july and even august newborns is not good......july newborns struggle to make the first winter, august newbies dont usually make it.  They might this year, whats left of them.....we see them born, and we know when they disappear.....coyotes hunt them relentlesly.

thats a great goal, and is probably one of the major problems in our deer herds in the West..........breeding of does by 1.5 and 2.5 yr old bucks.........causes all of the problems you stated above.......

unfortunately,  the 4 pt or more rule is going to achieve exactly what I described above, a stockpiling of immature bucks in the population;

EVERY respectable study on Eastern US Whitetail APR's says that there is very little recuruitment out of the 2.5 yr old class

quote from the Pennsylvania Game Commission (this after 10 yrs of APR's):

Where it has been instituted, either through regulations or through voluntary cooperation by clubs and individual hunters, antler restrictions have resulted in more bigger bucks in the entire population. Bigger, however, is a relative term. Data compiled by the PGC shows that while yearling bucks are indeed surviving at higher rates, most are being harvested the first year they are legal.

Now, 2-1/2-year-old bucks make up 75 percent of Pennsylvania’s “mature” buck harvest.

see, the last quote is the one that really helps bring to light the problem;  in Penn.  even their biologists thing a 2.5 yr old buck is a "mature" buck!

Now some of you will say well, only 75% of the 2.5 yr olds are being killed, so there is recruitment into the 3.5 yr old class;  while that is true in Penn. it takes a more sophisticated understanding of what is going on there to understand why it won't work here.

The "big difference" that nobody around here seems to want to admit, or even understand, is that in these Eastern US States with APR's, they set the rules up for either sex;

So, the avg hunter has an ANTLERLESS option.  This "pulls" pressure away from the buck population; 

In Penn. last year, 60% of the harvest was antlerless deer. That means 60% of the hunter pressure was directed away from bucks and onto the antlerless population.

Where is that extra 25% of hunter harvest going to be directed in 117 and 121 now?  On antlerless.................nope..............on bucks older then 2.5 yrs old.

In some states that have APR's now, they even have whats called an "Earn a Buck" program;  which means that you MUST shoot a doe, BEFORE you can get a buck tag!

Now contrast that with what is going on here;  no antlerless option; and, you have instituted this program in the two hunting units that receive the most hunting pressure of any units in this State;

No reduction in tags, no reduction in season length;  they kept the rut hunt.......

I am not saying that this rule is going to kill every mature buck out there, but, the problem is, it exacerbates an already severe problem that our deer herds have, and, that is extremely poor age structure, and the corresponding problems that causes.

It puts increased pressure on an already stressed component of the deer population (the mature bucks)

All the APR does is increase the age of the avg harvested buck by 1 yr;  that is what it does;  127 and the Palouse units have had APR's for quite a while now, and those units are mostly private and LOW hunting pressure (compared to 117 and 121);

Explain to me why we are not seeing an explosion of 160 class Whitetail bucks,  or better, being harvested in those units???  You guys all think this rule is going to make big bucks???  Where are they in those units??  Certainly by now, they should have shown up in the harvest category if the APR was working to make bigger bucks??

The reason is simple, there is no extra recruitment of bucks into that category because they are just getting shot 1 yr later then they would have!

You mark my words, after next hunting season, this rule will be deemed a "success";

Everybody want to know why??

Because the avg hunter in 117 and 121 will now be shooting a 2.5 yr old deer, and, just like in Penn. everybody will think they are now shooting a "mature" buck;

Recruitment of bucks in the 4.5 yr age class or better will be no different then it was before, AND, more pressure will be directed towards the existing mature bucks (4.5 yr old or older).

AND, we will be stuck with this regulation forever.............with the result being avg age of buck harvested rising to 2.5 yrs old; no better recruitment into the older age classes, and a slow but sure drain on the older age classes from increaesed harvest focus on this age class.

We can all check back in a year, and see where we end up with all of this........

We will see all kinds of pictures on here of 2.5 yr old whitetail bucks, and, in the harvest statistics we will see increased harvest in mature whitetail bucks, not from increased recruitment, but, from more pressure on that component of the population

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Great post muleyguy. I'd like to add to some of your points.

EVERY respectable study on Eastern US Whitetail APR's says that there is very little recuruitment out of the 2.5 yr old class

quote from the Pennsylvania Game Commission (this after 10 yrs of APR's):

"Where it has been instituted, either through regulations or through voluntary cooperation by clubs and individual hunters, antler restrictions have resulted in more bigger bucks in the entire population. Bigger, however, is a relative term. Data compiled by the PGC shows that while yearling bucks are indeed surviving at higher rates, most are being harvested the first year they are legal."
 

This is because humans are by far the most efficient predator there is.  We are very good at what we do. Some of it is because of our numbers, and some of it is modern technology, and some of it is because we live so long, we have time to learn efficient hunting methods and strategies.  This is not good or bad. It just explains why game managers spend as much or more time figuring out how to manage hunters (ie length of season, legal animal for harvest, method of harvest [modern, archery, blackpowder], draw hunts, road closures, etc.) If it was all about managing an un-hunted herd, it would be a relatively easy task. Hunting is generally what causes herds to become unbalanced and usually it is a rule like buck only hunting that causes it. WHATEVER individual animal hunters are forced to concentrate on harvesting will eventually cause a shortage of that animal unless there are strict harvest limits on the hunt.

Now some of you will say well, only 75% of the 2.5 yr olds are being killed, so there is recruitment into the 3.5 yr old class;  while that is true in Penn. it takes a more sophisticated understanding of what is going on there to understand why it won't work here.

The "big difference" that nobody around here seems to want to admit, or even understand, is that in these Eastern US States with APR's, they set the rules up for either sex;

So, the avg hunter has an ANTLERLESS option.  This "pulls" pressure away from the buck population; 

In Penn. last year, 60% of the harvest was antlerless deer. That means 60% of the hunter pressure was directed away from bucks and onto the antlerless population.

Where is that extra 25% of hunter harvest going to be directed in 117 and 121 now?  On antlerless.................nope..............on bucks older then 2.5 yrs old.

Now contrast that with what is going on here;  no antlerless option; and, you have instituted this program in the two hunting units that receive the most hunting pressure of any units in this State;

No reduction in tags, no reduction in season length;  they kept the rut hunt.......

I am not saying that this rule is going to kill every mature buck out there, but, the problem is, it exacerbates an already severe problem that our deer herds have, and, that is extremely poor age structure, and the corresponding problems that causes.

It puts increased pressure on an already stressed component of the deer population (the mature bucks)

All the APR does is increase the age of the avg harvested buck by 1 yr;  that is what it does;  127 and the Palouse units have had APR's for quite a while now, and those units are mostly private and LOW hunting pressure (compared to 117 and 121);

Explain to me why we are not seeing an explosion of 160 class Whitetail bucks,  or better, being harvested in those units???  You guys all think this rule is going to make big bucks???  Where are they in those units??  Certainly by now, they should have shown up in the harvest category if the APR was working to make bigger bucks??

Excellent point! I hunted a wheat ranch in one of those units for a second deer (whitetail doe) tag I drew. This was the worst year they ever had for bucks. Usually on the first weekend, they take 8 to 10 bucks each year. This year, they were shut out until the last weekend. The total was three small 3x3's for the whole season. This wouldn't even be a good first day of the season in years past. AND one thing I noticed about the bucks taken there (they have lots of pictures from past hunts), while in the past they have taken quite a few bucks , they are almost all small to medium fork, 3, or 4 pt bucks (not counting eye guards).  Nothing that would be considered a trophy.  Once in a blue moon there might be one buck that garners a little attention. While it satisfies guys who like to see some points on their deer racks, it is definitely not a trophy hunt.  The other thing that's happened there is this. This has traditionally been a mule deer unit. The ranch owner told me that when he was a kid they never saw a whitetail. And the mulies they used to take were pretty nice. Now that the whitetails have moved in and taken over, there aren't many mulies left. They don't seem to compete well with the whitetails.  This unit also has a very liberal doe hunt (youth and over 65 can take a doe instead of a buck and there is a liberal draw for other hunters) Seeing and taking a doe in this unit isn't hard at all. But seeing a truly large buck is almost impossible.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

It puts increased pressure on an already stressed component of the deer population (the mature bucks)

Was perusing the Alaska Dept of Fish and Game management section and came upon this interesting article that backs up your contention muleyguy.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/species/speciesinfo/moose/pdfs/interior_moose_news_fall_2011.pdf

This article is about moose, but it translates to deer in this instance, or even elk. If you scroll down to page 6 of 12, under the heading of Antler Restrictions, Why? is the quote........ " Antler restrictions are put in place on moose populations that are under a lot of hunting pressure. Antler restrictions are not intended to create trophy animals, but actually place more pressure on larger animals."

The article also explains why antlerless hunts are necessary to maintain herd balance and health and take some of the pressure off bulls while still allowing more opportunity for human harvest. Also noted are some of the reasons antlerless hunts are resisted by hunters. Sometimes good intentions go awry from good management.

[muleyguy]

what has become obvious for me concerning this rule is that the "backstory" most likely ( I have no proof of this, just my opinion) is it was pushed so hard not because it is some magical bullet;  but, rather, because the people pushing it knew that it would most likely result, at least in the short run, lower hunter pressure on these units.

the problem is, all this does in the short run is drive the hunters into neighboring units which skews the pressure and harvest higher in the neighboring units then it would have been;

that is the problem when you do not manage the seasons and units in a comprehensive manner. 

There is, and was no, scientific basis for this rule change;  the biologists knew this and that is why they were so against it. 

Using eastern US whitetail herds and APR's rules from these states, as a basis to manage our whitetail herds, is simply naive, at best, and I am trying to be nice with that statement......so the people pushing this were either incredibly naive OR had another agenda.........those are the only two options.....

The real problem here is that with many avg, DIY hunters out there, they think this is a great rule change because they think hey, if nobody is shooting the small bucks its going to make lots of mature bucks! 

Others are actually against this rule because they think this is about turning this area into a trophy unit!!

So, the misinformation out there is pretty deep on this from both sides........

its just too bad the WDFW didn't stand up to the pressure and do what their biologists said

[buckcanyonlodge]

what has become obvious for me concerning this rule is that the "backstory" most likely ( I have no proof of this, just my opinion) is it was pushed so hard not because it is some magical bullet;  but, rather, because the people pushing it knew that it would most likely result, at least in the short run, lower hunter pressure on these units.

the problem is, all this does in the short run is drive the hunters into neighboring units which skews the pressure and harvest higher in the neighboring units then it would have been;

that is the problem when you do not manage the seasons and units in a comprehensive manner. 

There is, and was no, scientific basis for this rule change;  the biologists knew this and that is why they were so against it. 

Using eastern US whitetail herds and APR's rules from these states, as a basis to manage our whitetail herds, is simply naive, at best, and I am trying to be nice with that statement......so the people pushing this were either incredibly naive OR had another agenda.........those are the only two options.....

The real problem here is that with many avg, DIY hunters out there, they think this is a great rule change because they think hey, if nobody is shooting the small bucks its going to make lots of mature bucks! 

Others are actually against this rule because they think this is about turning this area into a trophy unit!!

So, the misinformation out there is pretty deep on this from both sides........

its just too bad the WDFW didn't stand up to the pressure and do what their biologists said

AMEN!! Well said.
I know the now retired Assistant to the Director of WDFW. He stated that the commissioner from our area and the "sportsman " groups have wanted to change these areas to 4 point restriction for  YEARS. They finally used the low deer numbers to get  most of commissioners to go with it.

[bearpaw]

If past WA deer management was so good, why was our NE deer herd still declining, even after a mild winter?

If you guys are so correct, why are many Washington deer herds struggling in so many areas?

I would suggest you open your minds to other management styles which have worked in other areas.

Perfect Example:  Some of you guys still think wolves will fit in without impacts and that has long been proven incorrect in several other states.

[bearpaw]

Modern wildlife biology is a joke. You guys have all been brainwashed by anti-hunting college professors who promote predators and could care less about our ungulate herds and hunter opportunity. You need to look seriously at how real "Game" Biologists managed wildlife 30-40 years ago when we had large deer herds in most every state in spite of larger numbers of hunters. Reduce the cougar, coyotes, eliminate wolves, and alas, you will have abundant herds of healthy animals. 

I get tired of hearing you guys use habitat as an excuse. NE Washington has plenty of winter range and it's empty, almost void of deer. I used to go in the same areas and see hundreds of wintering deer. Don't try to say it's loss of habitat, that's a cop out, there is plenty of winter range on national forest that's nearly barren of deer. The problem is all these predators, there are record numbers of predators, the total predator footprint is staggering.

[Maverick]

Muley guy, I hunted the palouse unit this year and there were plenty of dandy bucks I out of 4 tags in our group I was the only one that took a young 3x4. Everyone else got big mature bucks. We saw some dandys on dfferent properties. We talked to few other groups out there and they all had someone in there group with a big buck. The bucks get oldee and they get smarter. Making them hard to find. I was standing cliff looking down and had no idea there was a big buck there. I threw rocks and nothing came out. My buddy could see the buck from the other side of the draw. Swears it was crawling along the cliff right under me. We didn't have radios. He swung around and shot the buck. Just goes to show that just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. I think the 3 point rule works great, Grows big bucks, and I will always vote to keep it.

[muleyguy]

Everyone else got big mature bucks

post the pictures for us to see..........

so all your buddies shot bucks 4.5 yrs old or bigger??

my guess is your buddies shot a mix of 2.5 yr old and 3.5 yr old bucks

but, post the pics up and prove me wrong

[muleyguy]

If past WA deer management was so good, why was our NE deer herd still declining, even after a mild winter?

past deer management has not been good;  never said that.......but you do not follow bad management with further bad management???  what kind of strategy is that??

If you guys are so correct, why are many Washington deer herds struggling in so many areas?

predators, over hunting, back to back bad winters, declining habitat (in SOME areas) increase of elk,  5 million humans in the smallest western state, and, all the problems that brings (habitat fragmentation, poaching, etc)

I would suggest you open your minds to other management styles which have worked in other areas.

Find me an area in the US where you have a declining, unproductive whitetail herd, were they have implemented APR's, WITHOUT a corresponding antleless option, but kept all the season's including a rut hunt the same??  The answer is NO WHERE.........using an APR in ours herds is not the right management style........

You outfit in Montana;  some areas of Montana have lost 80% of the whitetail herd to Blue Tongue and last winter; 

Are you pounding the table with the Montana Fish and Game to move to APR's in their state?   Certainly those herds in the Milk River area are hurting much worse then our NE whitetail herds are???   

Perfect Example:  Some of you guys still think wolves will fit in without impacts and that has long been proven incorrect in several other states.

not me......I have never suggested that; 

[muleyguy]

Modern wildlife biology is a joke. You guys have all been brainwashed by anti-hunting college professors who promote predators and could care less about our ungulate herds and hunter opportunity. You need to look seriously at how real "Game" Biologists managed wildlife 30-40 years ago when we had large deer herds in most every state in spite of larger numbers of hunters. Reduce the cougar, coyotes, eliminate wolves, and alas, you will have abundant herds of healthy animals. 

I get tired of hearing you guys use habitat as an excuse. NE Washington has plenty of winter range and it's empty, almost void of deer. I used to go in the same areas and see hundreds of wintering deer. Don't try to say it's loss of habitat, that's a cop out, there is plenty of winter range on national forest that's nearly barren of deer. The problem is all these predators, there are record numbers of predators, the total predator footprint is staggering.

not sure who you are referring to, but, I have never suggested that habitat is the biggest factor, nor that predators are not a serious problem;  I wholeheartedly agree that predators are a serious problem!

Not exactly sure, though why you would think APR's will do anything to solve this problem??? 

Habitat is great in NE WA;  problem is that you have more and more people all the time moving into these areas fragmenting the habitat;  you have increased predator numbers, you have changing agricultural make-up, etc.

If predators are the biggest problem, then I suggest putting your energies into solving that problem;  not putting time and energy into worthless rule changes that are not going to solve the predator problem (APR's)

[Maverick]

How old are these bucks? I'm sure they are older than 2.5. And they're big enough for us to shoot. I consider a big buck a mature buck. All of our bucks were shot on public land too.

[Maverick]

Yes that buck on the left is the same as the the bottom pic. That bottom buck is 22 wide.