The Debate about if APR's Work!!

[Special T]

I love the debate about APR's  it is very interesting... And i would mostly agree with Dave... Hell I think most hunters agree with a few points. We need trapping to control predators IE coyotes
We need hound hunting to help control bears and cougars. If we as hunters focused on what we do AGREE on then we would be way ahead of the game. I was talking to a fellow
BH club member that volunteers for the WDFW.  I asked him why he thought the WDFW didn't perform for hunters. His response was that WE ARE NOT ORGANIZED! We fight amongst ourselves
about chit like APR's and Season setting. The reality is we should be working at predator management. I also talked to a retired WDFW LEO about why we as hunters are getting screwed.
His response was that the fishing side of the WDFW is more organized and cohesive than the hunting side.  we need to press issues that bring hunters together instead of getting divided up like this
APR issue. Some say yea, some say nay so why push it? Push the issues we all agree with! 

[Dave Workman]

Oh, and Dave, I'd love to hunt out of state every year but I cannot afford it. I think I'll be stuck here in Washington and only Washington for the next 10 years or so.

Hmmm, well, then, follow the advice of the ages: When in Rome, do what the Romans do.

I take it you moved here from elsewhere. Or, at the very least, you have not had the experience that others have had over a much longer hunting career. 

You want fewer people in the woods and lower harvest.  Begging your pardon, but that seems rather selfish.
I know the woods don't belong to me. Others enjoy their time here, too.

And I am interested in seeing better and more productive hunting and more game animals...and that is possible here because we have the land to do it.

The "Less is More" approach is not simply wrong, it is wrong-headed. It plays into the hands of wildlife managers who seem more interested in spending their time with studies and data-gathering instead of getting their hands dirty improving habitat and expanding game herds.

Too many people have grown up listening to, and believing, the bull$#!t about "We've got to learn to get along with less."  Tell that to the NWTF, which has enhanced and grown wild turkey populations all over and even helped out in Washington until the WDFW crapped on the turkey program.

Ask those Ohio deer hunters I wrote about earlier. When I first started writing about the disparity between Washington and Ohio, the annual harvest there hovered around 98,000 to 100,000 deer. That's more than doubled in the past 25 years despite a growing population in Ohio that is about twice our population.

I've hunted in other states and seen with they can do with habitat not much different than ours and winter weather that is downright fearsome compared to what you find over most of this state. In Utah, I counted about 400 deer in three days of hunting and deliberately killed a cull buck 2x3 when I could have waited and whacked a big 4x4.

In Wyoming, I hunted the same buck for three days after missing an initial shot due to incredibly high winds. Anchored him on the final day with a 200-yard shot. Good solid 4-pt buck.  In Montana, I nailed an even bigger 4-point on the final day of a week hunt southeast of Terry, after looking over several other deer in country that also had a gazillion pheasants. And it was bleak, barren country with scrub pines and little finger canyons interspersed with ranch and farmland.

But, of course, in Utah, Wyoming and Montana, the game departments know and APPRECIATE who pays their salaries and they know what makes money...and it sure isn't watching animals at a winter feed station or sitting on one's @$$ listening for the howl of a Frigging wolf. Ditto in Idaho, where I am likely to land next November.

The only way to make these people respond is to hammer them hard and make them accountable. Tell them to produce or pack and make room for someone who can.

[bobcat]

I take it you moved here from elsewhere. Or, at the very least, you have not had the experience that others have had over a much longer hunting career.

Not sure why you say that. I've lived here my entire life (almost 44 years) and have been hunting since about 1981, and haven't missed a season since then.

You think I don't have experience hunting in the state just because I favor the WDFW actually managing our wildlife, rather than the unlimited tags and the no-management" style of management we have now?   

Again, I don't get why you think we're so different than states like Oregon, which went to draw only for mule deer many years ago. Why is it right for them but not for us?

[colockumelk]

Dave I think we can agree that predator control is the #1 issue and obstacle we face to a better deer herd. But besides this can you please explain something. You advocate for longer seasons and for doing away with APRs. Longer seasons and less restrictions equals a higher number of bucks harvested. How would this help out our deer herd? 

And for everyone else. I have compared PA APR rules as an example of how it works with whitetails and was told over and over again how you camt compare WA and PA. I've even compared South of I90 with APRs and North of I90 without APRs and was told you can't compare the two. (Really people) but when Dave compares OH with WA (which I think was a good example BTW) no one says anything.  On another thread I said how NY does a better job than WA showing the same type of  stats Dave put up and got ripped by people.  Again you can't compare the two. I guess for some people its easier to dismiss someone's research or sources as "irrelevant" or "apples to oranges" than provide a good counterargument.

[bearpaw]

There's actually some good points from all sides in this discussion and I honestly don't know the best answer but hope we learn more in the next few years so we can increase the productivity of our herds in this state.

As someone else said, we all agree that predators are one of our biggest problems. My advice is that we all work toward better predator management and not get side tracked squabling over the things we can't agree on like this APR. 

_____________________

Dave, you are right, I remember everything about the hound and bait issue, it changed my whole way of life, and the WDFW did nothing to help, they sat on their a$$e$ just as you say and just like they wanted it to pass.

_____________________

I hope some of you who do want to see change will join "Washington For Wildlife", the links are all over this forum and it's free. We have already started making our organization known and we are developing good relationships with other organizations so that we can all work together on important issues that we agree on.

[huntnnw]

I will say that cars may kill more deer in a year than predators

[colockumelk]

I agree with Dale. I think its discussions like this that educated people and creates good ideas. Discussing differing opinions is a good thing and only helps to bring us together. We all want the same thing we just might disagree slightly on how to achieve that goal. I think our goal should be to get our deer to the point where we have a healthy buck to doe ratio, our herds are at or near capacity and we can do away with APRs. We are currently nowhere near that goal and unless we can get a handle on the predators we never will.  The o ly flaw I see with the OH and WA comparison (which was brought up when comparing NY and PA to Wa) Is WA has way more predators.

[bearpaw]

    Yep, this is precisely the obvious problem compared to PA or OH, and I think predators are the #1 problem outdistancing car fatalities by far. There are no fatlities from cars in our wilderness areas and that is where some of our herds are struggling the most.

[Elkaholic daWg]

I love the debate about APR's  it is very interesting... And i would mostly agree with Dave... Hell I think most hunters agree with a few points. We need trapping to control predators IE coyotes
We need hound hunting to help control bears and cougars. If we as hunters focused on what we do AGREE on then we would be way ahead of the game. I was talking to a fellow
BH club member that volunteers for the WDFW.  I asked him why he thought the WDFW didn't perform for hunters. His response was that WE ARE NOT ORGANIZED! We fight amongst ourselves
about chit like APR's and Season setting. The reality is we should be working at predator management. I also talked to a retired WDFW LEO about why we as hunters are getting screwed.
His response was that the fishing side of the WDFW is more organized and cohesive than the hunting side.  we need to press issues that bring hunters together instead of getting divided up like this
APR issue. Some say yea, some say nay so why push it? Push the issues we all agree with! 

 Every time on here it is so obvious that hunters are the easiest group to splinter for any anti this, or anti that, group to use us to further their agenda!

[mdbuck5x5]

I will say that cars may kill more deer in a year than predators

Wow, how did you come up with that assumption? 

[Elkaholic daWg]

 Every time on here it is so obvious that hunters are the easiest group to splinter for any anti this, or anti that, group to use us to further their agenda!

  Of which the original seed for this was planted in the late 70's by the Washington department of Fish and Game pushing for  "Resource allocation"
 Colockumelk I realize there are MANY MANY more people  living in the rural areas of this  state than in 1970 ((And that farmers were more inclined to let you hunt their land  (W/O an outfitting fee))...but Experiencing BOTH my money says there were more hunters in the woods then, when whole construction jobs would shut down during  the openers of the seasons for a few days.

 Even the frog likes the water warmed up to a point, but then he doesn't realize when it's too late to get out.



 One other thing ...IF we had the QUALITY of a Wyoming hunt.......YES WE WOULD need MORE draw hunts because the whole nation (or more)would be drooling over our tags and then  OTC would cause a real problem.
 THAT is not the case

[JimmyHoffa]

And for everyone else. I have compared PA APR rules as an example of how it works with whitetails and was told over and over again how you camt compare WA and PA. I've even compared South of I90 with APRs and North of I90 without APRs and was told you can't compare the two. (Really people) but when Dave compares OH with WA (which I think was a good example BTW) no one says anything.  On another thread I said how NY does a better job than WA showing the same type of  stats Dave put up and got ripped by people.  Again you can't compare the two. I guess for some people its easier to dismiss someone's research or sources as "irrelevant" or "apples to oranges" than provide a good counterargument.

The way I read it, you are focusing more on the methods other states are using---ex:  APRs for WT and if that translates to WA muleys.  And it seems like Dave is pointing out the change over time to opportunity because of different game depts--ex:  WA has had a decline in hunters, herd, harvest; but OH is increasing all 3.  What you are discussing is more debateable because it is one of the available tools and there is science for and against as well as personal observations.  What Dave seems to throw around (with the OH comparison) is harder to counter because it isn't the method, it's the numbers.

[Dave Workman]

  Of which the original seed for this was planted in the late 70's by the Washington department of Fish and Game pushing for  "Resource allocation"
 
 One other thing ...IF we had the QUALITY of a Wyoming hunt.......YES WE WOULD need MORE draw hunts because the whole nation (or more)would be drooling over our tags and then  OTC would cause a real problem.
 THAT is not the case

B-I-N-G-O!

Resource Allocation helped create this mess, and people who weren't here or cannot remember back when this state had 100K more hunters yet produced longer, later elk and deer seasons don't understand — or don't want to understand, or give it lip service or whatever — what hunting was, and most importantly, what it could be like again.

If other states with far less resources than we have can produce hunting kill rates like Ohio, why the hell can't WA? 

That's the far better question to ask than "If other states can go to permit hunts, why can't WA?" 

Like it or not, permit hunts are eventually going to kill this tradition because most people will not wait around year after year for a chance to go camping with a gun. It is foolish to believe so, and you who are permit advocates can go ahead and flame if you want.

I have a suggestion. Self-impose a limitation on yourself. If you hunted deer and elk this year, skip the next three. Be part of the solution to that "fewer people in the woods" dilemma. (Oh, watch the flames on this one!  )

Bearpaw is dead right about the predator problem. That's why I am an advocate of removing the license requirement to kill coyotes. I also advocate restoration of hound hunting for bears and cougars, and if somebody at the WDFW doesn't like that, they should find some other endeavor.   

[Dave Workman]

 What Dave seems to throw around (with the OH comparison) is harder to counter because it isn't the method, it's the numbers.

Well, what that guy Dave is doing is not "throwing around" numbers. That guy Dave is talking about SUCCESS. The conscious decision by a GAME agency to manage for more animals and more opportunity for more hunters. The understanding that their success is measured by the number of notched tags and satisfied hunters, not whether they can have a bunch of hungry animals at feed lots all winter long for the P#U/c$ing tourists to watch and the coyotes, cougars and wolves to eat.

In this state, I constantly point to the wild turkey program of the 90s, which became an Honest-to-God tidal wave success primarily because one guy used his head and knowledge to produce something that actually benefitted and provided additional  opportunity for hunters.

He put his skills to work to do something besides write reports at a desk, that same kind of "do it" approach could work to improve our big game herds. All we need to make that happen is a bunch of retirements and the right layoffs, and a change in name and mission of the Department of No Fish and Watchable Wildlife to the Department of GAME

[bobcat]

Dave, maybe you need to apply for a job at the WDFW then. It sounds like you have all the answers.