Shooting cow with calf

[PolarBear]

 

[funkster]

Elk herds in this state are weak and are getting weaker every year due to this mentality of "shoot anything that moves". Shooting a cow with a calf or shooting a calf  to me is greed and the "I have to get something" syndrom. I could understand if you where living off the land and that was your sole means of survival, however, no modern hunter in this day and age fits that bill. Instead of buying tags, weapons and gas spend that money at costco,you will get way more meat for the dollar.

    If you're that concerned about the "health" of the WA elk herds, don't kill them.

Not killing elk at all will do more damage than anything, that statement proves you are not educated on elk management. Do a little research about the deer on Anderson Island in california and see how your suggestion of "don't kill them" worked out! The issue is not about killing animals, I have no problem doing so, and have done it more than once, however, I am now selective on what I do shoot. We all should be concerned about the "health" of the elk herds in washington. Our elk herds are not in good shape compared to other states the manage elk. 

[Lcl 66 Tinner]

I passed on this situation on Monday, my personal choice.

[big wood]

I'M NOT SAYING DONT EVER KILL COWS OR CALVES, WE NEED TO SLOW IT DOWN (MY OPINION). i FEEL IN TEN YEARS HUNTING  OUR STATE IS GOING TO DRASTICALLY CHANGE AGAINST THE HUNTERS FAVOR  DUE TO THE WOLF SITUATION. I HAVE SEEN IT FIRST HAND IN IDAHO WHEN THE HUNTING WAS EXCELLENT AND EVERY YEAR IT GOT PROGRESSIVELY WORSE TO WHAT WE HAVE OVER THERE NOW. THE GREENIE/LIBS ARE TRYING TO WIN.  I SAY BUILD THE ELK HERDS UP STRONG SO THEY CAN SURVIVE LONG ENOUGH WE CAN WIN SOME KIND OF WOLF MANAGEMENT PROGRAM.

[Glockster]

If you ever took any basic college level wildlife biology course; one of the first things they teach is that you cannot stockpile wildlife.  Meaning a certain % of babies will die....whether it's me or the coyote down the canyon does not matter.  It's all the same in the calculation.

I'm not concerned about our herds' health...trained biologists say there's enough for a season and there's enough antlerless for permits.... so I'd kill a calf any day if I had the permit.  You guys who are concerned about 'herd health' (whatever that means to you); don't kill elk if it bothers you that bad.   Pretty simple.   More for the rest of us predators.

[funkster]

If you ever took any basic college level wildlife biology course; one of the first things they teach is that you cannot stockpile wildlife.  Meaning a certain % of babies will die....whether it's me or the coyote down the canyon does not matter.  It's all the same in the calculation.

I'm not concerned about our herds' health...trained biologists say there's enough for a season and there's enough antlerless for permits.... so I'd kill a calf any day if I had the permit.  You guys who are concerned about 'herd health' (whatever that means to you); don't kill elk if it bothers you that bad.   Pretty simple.   More for the rest of us predators.

I never said anything about "stockpiling" animals, I am talking about balance. Trained bilogists said that Idoho could support a wolf plan, how did that turn out? Trained biologists are starting to plant wovles here now, how do you think it is going to turn out? Trained biologists said that the elk herds in soutwest washington need to be reduce. I can tell you first hand that just 3 short years ago I could easily be with in bow range of over 20 elk a day, now you are lucky if you see 5 in a week. Ask anyone that has hunted down there if they have witnessed the dramtic decrease in elk. Now lets throw this in the pot, 5 months of hunting elk, over 800 special permits,wolves and winter kill. And you put your trust on what a "trained biologists" calculated? Yeah, they never make mistakes

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

If you ever took any basic college level wildlife biology course; one of the first things they teach is that you cannot stockpile wildlife.  Meaning a certain % of babies will die....whether it's me or the coyote down the canyon does not matter.  It's all the same in the calculation.

I'm not concerned about our herds' health...trained biologists say there's enough for a season and there's enough antlerless for permits.... so I'd kill a calf any day if I had the permit.  You guys who are concerned about 'herd health' (whatever that means to you); don't kill elk if it bothers you that bad.   Pretty simple.   More for the rest of us predators.

That was part of the point I was trying to make.
ONE cow or calf , has no impact on overall herd numbers, but like they did in Yakima, and are doing in St Helens, 100's of cows/calves will result in herd reduction.
I used to see herds of OVER 200 elk during the summer in the manastash, now... 
When you talk about herd health, are you talking about the actual health of the herd, or just number of animals in the herd ?
Washington State has the most hunters per Elk than any other state that has Elk, and yet there are areas that have need of winter feeding to avoid winter kill.
And areas that have the spread of disease.
If you were really concerned about the health of these herds, you would hunt in the areas that need reduction, instead of the areas that are the most popular.
Areas open to antlerless harvest, are open for a variety of reasons, either the WDFW wants to severely limit the Elk population, reduce the population, or increase bull/cow ratios.
Passing on a legal animal, for whatever reason you have, is only your reason, and not a management tool, power to you for your decisions, but making statements about it having an influence on the overall health off the herd is just ridonculous ( ) and makes you sound like one of those self promoting yahoo's on TV.
These are not "High Fence" Elk, and you by yourself have no impact on the herd, Only season structure, timing,  (decided by the WDFW) and escapement (closed roads or cover) has an effect.

[doyourtime89]

what ever it takes to legally fill said freezer.....

 

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

Trained biologists said that the elk herds in soutwest washington need to be reduce. I can tell you first hand that just 3 short years ago I could easily be with in bow range of over 20 elk a day, now you are lucky if you see 5 in a week. Ask anyone that has hunted down there if they have witnessed the dramtic decrease in elk. Now lets throw this in the pot, 5 months of hunting elk, over 800 special permits,wolves and winter kill. And you put your trust on what a "trained biologists" calculated? Yeah, they never make mistakes

I always get a little confused with my Map, I think you are talking about their reduction in the St Helens herd...
As I stated in my previous post, I do not agree with the reduction, of that herd or what they did to the Yakima herd, but that was more (In my opinion) a result of complaints by the private timber companies, and Elk hunters who thought it was too hard to get an Elk (Bull) so in order to try to make them happy (the complainers) they issue 500+ MORE antlerless permits, and people are happy to get them, but wait until they get the herd down to their "objective" and you will see even less Elk than you do now, and hear a lot more complaining.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

But I hunt what I consider SW Washington (West of I-5 and South of 12) and just like Elk hunters everywhere (in Washington) very few get more than a mile from their vehicle, or even hunt more than a few hours in the morning and evening, then spend the day either in camp, or driving around.
 I find Elk throughout the area, in herds of 15-20, but I walk in behind gates. (not saying you dont) If I do not find good sign in one area, I go to another..

[Hi-Liter]

Assuming someone doesnt want to take a calf doesn't mean they are some cry baby fool or peta lover. If you were to take the most basic college level biology course, the instructor would sure make a point that shooting  a cow/calf cow would have an overall impact on the herd(s) in any county or reservation. Doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.

[YellowDog]

I'M NOT SAYING DONT EVER KILL COWS OR CALVES, WE NEED TO SLOW IT DOWN (MY OPINION). i FEEL IN TEN YEARS HUNTING  OUR STATE IS GOING TO DRASTICALLY CHANGE AGAINST THE HUNTERS FAVOR  DUE TO THE WOLF SITUATION. I HAVE SEEN IT FIRST HAND IN IDAHO WHEN THE HUNTING WAS EXCELLENT AND EVERY YEAR IT GOT PROGRESSIVELY WORSE TO WHAT WE HAVE OVER THERE NOW. THE GREENIE/LIBS ARE TRYING TO WIN.  I SAY BUILD THE ELK HERDS UP STRONG SO THEY CAN SURVIVE LONG ENOUGH WE CAN WIN SOME KIND OF WOLF MANAGEMENT PROGRAM.

No offense but I think that is exactly the wrong way to look at this.  If we hunters and conservationists work our asses off and spend our dollars to build herds up while the wolf lovers are spending their (and our) money to build the wolf populations they will use our efforts against us.  How you say?  Well, they will use the fact that the elk populations are stable or increasing as wolf populations are increasing exponentially as proof that wolves don't have a negative impact on elk/deer herd populations.  Before you know it the tides will turn and there will be so many damn wolves that the herd numbers will drop quickly anyway.  We will have sacrificed our time, money, etc. on building the herds AND stopped hunting antlerless deer and elk which is part of good wildlife management and it will blow up in our face anyway.  The only way to beat the wolf lovers is to fight them head on and try to limit the number of wolves we have before we can start hunting them.  Either way it is probably a losing battle but I don't want my efforts to go toward supporting their cause.   

[funkster]

Health of a herd to me is overall health, little to no diseased animals and a balanced bull to cow ratio. Good herd numbers that can support where that particular herd lives.   Shooting a calf or a cow with a calf would not really be that big of a deal if you where the only the part of equation. However, now put into account, all the other factors that we have already mentioned and then we might be a problem. I am not one of  those "self promoting yahoo's on TV", I hate tv hunting shows.

Do these herds really need reduction? or is the only driving factor loss revenue to tree farms?

FYI, I am usually the first one to the gates around the area we hunt and 10 miles back before the sun comes up!

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

Do these herds really need reduction? or is the only driving factor loss revenue to tree farms?

FYI, I am usually the first one to the gates around the area we hunt and 10 miles back before the sun comes up!

I was not directly criticizing you, but the majority of other hunters I see, they also never heard of this forum, so I suspect the majority of hunters on here also put out an "extra" effort.
I also feel that these herds do not need reduction the way the WDFW is going about it, but they are dealing with all hunters, not just the ones that are willing to earn an animal.
I also feel that $$$ is ALWAYS the driving factor behind what the WDFW does, period.

[funkster]

Ok yall, it was fun, I am off to the Coweeman to try and shoot a immature raghorn with the smoke pole...ha ha ha!