Woodland Caribou in NE WA

[dibbs]

Just an educated guess, but I would imagine the wolves in NE Washington may have put the smackdown on the caribou herd. I don't believe the numbers were all that high to begin with.  I'll check a couple sources that are doing wolf studies, to see if they have any caribou on their trailcams.  I'll report back with some factual information hopefully, not my supposition.

[TeacherMan]

Back around 1998 up above Sullivan Lake, one rd. past Gypsy Meadows on the left going up there was a biologist up there all summer who had around 20 of them in a pen that they planned on letting go at sum point that summer. Cool looking animals. Talking to him back then it was the mountain lions that were the problem. The area that they had been getting the animals from to transplant into WA didn't have large cats 

[boneaddict]

Cats are a huge issue up there.  Wolves won't help.

[bearpaw]

Question:
Where has the Grizzly Bear made the biggest comeback in the United States?

Answer:
I think the answer to this would be Glacier and Yellowstone National Parks, and the mountain ranges surrounding those parks, please correct me if I am wrong.

So, my point is that these two parks have heavy human visitation, hiking trails, and snowmobiling, and the mountain ranges surrounding the parks have human inhabitants and are heavily hunted and snomobiled amoung other uses. The area in Washington where the caribou roam is already wilderness "Salmo Wilderness". So snowmobile use and logging is not an issue in the Washington area that these caribou occupy.

While they seem to be blaming human trails, snowmobile use and logging, the snowmobiling seems to be occuring in B.C. Why is snowmobiling even an issue in Washington? When I read parts of the report, all the known fatalities were caused by hunting activity and auto collisions in BC. If I remember correctly, (I may be wrong) but it seems to me that a tribe in BC still hunts these caribou occasionally. It also seems that as someone else mentioned, it is known that cougars are causing mortality. If I am correct, then to help these caribou Canada needs to negotiate with that particular tribe and they need to find ways to limit highway fatalities. Washington needs to allow cougar hunting and actually target cougar in northeastern PO County. Access will be needed for that to happen... 

It appears that none of the known fatalities have anything to do with snowmobiles, hiking or horseback trails, or logging, why on earth do they want to further limit access or those activities.

To solve a problem you must identify and limit the actual cause of the problem. 

[frostman]

I have a business associate in Revelstoke, BC who say's essentially the same thing that Bearpaw is suggesting and he is in the logging / lumber manufacturing sector. Like most BC residents, he is liberal. It is always the fault of evil humans. The Revelstoke area is a players paradise for snow machiners and back country venturers.

I had never heard of woodland caribou until a couple years ago. I would have thought that woodland caribou would benefit from logging / clearcutting creating feeding areas.

The decline in numbers is almost assuredly from predators, but that doesn't fit the liberal agenda.

[shanevg]

I know that predators are a major issue for woodland caribou but so is logging. Woodland caribou rely almost entirely on lichen that grows on trees in a forested area in the winter. They tend to stick to large tracts of land with old growth forest since that is prime habitat for lichen growth. Research has shown that fragmentation due to logging is one of the biggest issues when it comes to survivability of woodland caribou herds.

[bearpaw]

I know that predators are a major issue for woodland caribou but so is logging. Woodland caribou rely almost entirely on lichen that grows on trees in a forested area in the winter. They tend to stick to large tracts of land with old growth forest since that is prime habitat for lichen growth. Research has shown that fragmentation due to logging is one of the biggest issues when it comes to survivability of woodland caribou herds.

I'm not disagreeing that predators are a major issue, and their report supports what the caribou are eating. What I am saying is that the portion of Washington where the caribou live is already designated wilderness (Salmo Wilderness), so there is no logging or snowmobiling at all in that area. Why are they even bringing up logging and snowmiling in the US?

Is it because they want to extend the wilderness in Idaho closer to Sandpointe? I must comment again that it appears mortality is due to conditions in Canada and to predation.

[shanevg]

I know that predators are a major issue for woodland caribou but so is logging. Woodland caribou rely almost entirely on lichen that grows on trees in a forested area in the winter. They tend to stick to large tracts of land with old growth forest since that is prime habitat for lichen growth. Research has shown that fragmentation due to logging is one of the biggest issues when it comes to survivability of woodland caribou herds.

I'm not disagreeing that predators are a major issue, and their report supports what the caribou are eating. What I am saying is that the portion of Washington where the caribou live is already designated wilderness (Salmo Wilderness), so there is no logging or snowmobiling at all in that area. Why are they even bringing up logging and snowmiling in the US?

Is it because they want to extend the wilderness in Idaho closer to Sandpointe? I must comment again that it appears mortality is due to conditions in Canada and to predation.

Not disagreeing with you at all- I was responding to the post saying that logging would create more feed for them. That may be true for elk and deer but not woodlan caribou.

The truth with the Selkirk caribou is that the BC problems are really the biggest problems. Extending the wilderness area in Idaho would probably be good but in reality those caribou are hardly ever in the states anyways. Unfortunately in both the North Cascades grizz issue and the Selkirk caribou issue, one of the biggest struggles is just getting cooperation between Canada and the US.

On a different note I would love to see wilderness areas be a more common solution to these "environmental issues" than expanding National Parks and closing down areas except to special user groups. At least with wilderness areas we can still hunt areas. Seriously, the North Cascades Park shouldn't even exist. It should just be a wilderness area! 

[shanevg]

http://m.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2011/nov/30/feds-propose-habitat-protections-selkirk-caribou/

By the way if you look at the map most of the proposed areas are in Idaho. I believe all of the Washington areas are already wilderness and therefore no changes should need to be made.

[bearpaw]

http://m.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2011/nov/30/feds-propose-habitat-protections-selkirk-caribou/

By the way if you look at the map most of the proposed areas are in Idaho. I believe all of the Washington areas are already wilderness and therefore no changes should need to be made.

Agreed about Washington, but makes no sense to me to make more wilderness in Idaho for a specie not being affected by conditions in Idaho.

I would also agree that wilderness is better than national park. They already want to expand the North Cascades Park. More land of no use. 

[shanevg]

Except that the biggest issue with these caribou is habitat and logging (and snowmobiles in the clearcuts created by logging) is the biggest threat to their habitat. Part of the reason more incidents occur in BC is because the caribou spend more time in BC. It can definitely be argued that wilderness protection in ID could dramatically help expand their viable habitat.

[Elkaholic daWg]

 Now I don't know that woodland caribou react exactly the same but....
 maybe we should just keep everyone out eh?


Below is a portion of my comment letter I submitted for the Yellowstone National Park - 2008 Winter Use Plans Environmental Assessment Comment

    Snowmobiles do not put unreasonable stress on wildlife. Numerous studies have shown that wildlife are more stressed and “fear flight” far more often by the sudden unannounced presence of approaching humans on foot (cross-country ski/snow-shoe recreationists) than they do by the well observed appearance of snowmobilers. Snowmobilers can be heard by ungulates at a greater distance than non-motorized users can be heard, which in turn gives wildlife ample opportunities to calmly move off trails into nearby denser vegetation, thus avoiding last minute “fear flight” as when startled by the sudden unannounced presence of non-motorized users which are perceived by ungulates as predators.

    One such recent study found that “ski trails seem to displace mule deer to greater distances than occurs along snowmobile routes” (Recreation Effects on Wildlife [2002] - Bill Gaines, Forest Service Wildlife Biologist, Wenatchee National Forest). Another study states “snowmobiles appear less distressing than cross-country skiers, and for several ungulate species, the greatest negative responses were measured for unpredictable or erratic occurrences”. This study also states “Greater flight distances occur in response to skiers or individuals on foot than to snowmobiles, suggesting that the most detrimental disturbances to the wintering animal is that which is unanticipated.” (Effects of recreation on Rocky Mountain Wildlife [1999] – Ungulates). “Harassment and displacement of wildlife, even if inadvertent, probably occurs more often than we know. Boating, camping, hiking, fishing, and other popular activities, including simply driving along the park’s roads, cause wildlife to modify their behavior and use of habitats. Only by careful monitoring of animal populations can we infer when human activities are causing too much stress to individual animals or to the health of their local populations. Outside the park, continued population growth and land development cause competition between humans and animals for living space.” (NPS http://www.nps.gov/yell/parkmgmt/upload/preserving.pdf)






http://www.snowmobilers.org/facts_sound.html


Addressing the subject of snowmobile operations in Yellowstone National Park, Jack Anderson, a former Superintendent of Yellowstone commented: "We found that elk, bison, moose, even the fawns, wouldn't move away unless a machine was stopped and a person started walking. As long as you stayed on the machine and the machine was running, they never paid any attention. If you stopped the machine, got off and started moving, that was a different story. The thing that seemed to be disturbing to them was a man walking on foot".

And:

A three-year study, Response of white-tailed Deer to Snowmobiles and Snowmobile Trails in Maine, conducted by wildlife scientists for the Maine Cooperative Wildlife Research Unit and the Maine Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife, revealed that: "Deer consistently bedded near snowmobile trails and fed along them even when those trails were used for snowmobiling several times daily. In addition, fresh deer tracks were repeatedly observed on snowmobile trails shortly after machines had passed by, indicating that deer were not driven from the vicinity of these trails? The reaction of deer to a man walking differed markedly from their reaction to a man on a snowmobile? This decided tendency of deer to run with the approach of a human on foot, in contrast to their tendency to stay in sight when approached by a snowmobiler, suggests that the deer responded to the machine and not to the person riding it".



And my favorite:

The Wisconsin study also compared the reaction of deer to the presence of cross-country skiers. When cross-country skiers replaced snowmobiles on the test trail systems, the deer moved away from the trail more frequently.

[high country]

Except that the biggest issue with these caribou is habitat and logging (and snowmobiles in the clearcuts created by logging) is the biggest threat to their habitat. Part of the reason more incidents occur in BC is because the caribou spend more time in BC. It can definitely be argued that wilderness protection in ID could dramatically help expand their viable habitat.

Ever been there? It does not need to be wilderness protected, god made it damn near impassible to anything shy of a helicopter.

[Elkaholic daWg]

One other thing. Anywhere in this area that is in Idaho that you want to keep the snowmobiles out of that some of the sledders just might be Wolf hunters.

[high country]

One other thing. Anywhere in this area that is in Idaho that you want to keep the snowmobiles out of that some of the sledders just might be Wolf hunters.

I resemble that.