Questions about diesel fuels?

[bearpaw]

I have some questions about the difference between #2 and #1 diesel.

Which do you get the best mileage with and why?
I thought #2 will gell in cold weather, do you know at what temperature?
Which is best for your moter, any difference in motor life?

THANKS for any help....

[Encore 280]

Googled it and "ehow" explained it pretty good. #1 is for cold weather but is a bit more expensive but you can mix the two also.

[bearpaw]

OK thanks, I googled it and found this:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Difference_between_number_1_diesel_and_number_2#ixzz1hh09rPiu
Answer:
1D diesel fuel has lower viscosity and a lower pour point than 2D, so is preferred for cold weather. 1D diesel fuel has only about 95 percent of the energy output as 2D, causing reduced gas mileage and lower horsepower. 2D fuel is used in warmer weather, and also can be mixed with 1D for an effective winter fuel.




What is the freezing point of diesel?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_freezing_point_of_diesel
Answer:
Like most fuels, diesel is a mix of hydrocarbons, and the components have different freezing points. For Number 2 diesel, as the ambient temperatures drop toward 0°C (32 F), it begins to cloud, due to the paraffin in the fuel solidifying. As the temperatures drop below 0°C, the molecules combine into solids, large enough to be stopped by the filter. This is known as the gel point, and generally occurs about -9.5 degrees C (15 degrees F ) below the cloud point.

This wax then forms a coating on the filter which results in a loss of engine power. The same thing happens on starting an engine when the temperature is below freezing. The filter becomes almost instantly coated with wax - usually, enough fuel gets through to allow the engine to idle, but not attain operating RPM. There are two common ways to overcome this: one is a diesel additive, the other is a fuel heater.

In Alaska and other colder climates, lorries are running regularly at -46°C (-51 F) or lower, so as you see, it depends on additives and heating. But to freeze - as in turning solid - you would need laboratory conditions; nature cannot go cold enough to freeze to a low enough temperature.
 

Freezing of Gasoline (Petrol)
Fuels (like gasoline) are really a cocktail of hydrocarbons: thicker, oil-like stuff at room temperature with some thinner ones, and also aromatics that are gaseous at room temperature.
 
So, by freezing, is the question asking when it turns solid? The heavier hydrocarbons will start to solidify sooner than the aromatics.

The flash point of gasoline is about -72°C (-97F), meaning that it will still burn at 72 degrees below zero. Most labs won't even have the ability to chill a sample down that far to find out! Even the -72°C mark is going to vary, based on the additives in the sample.

Of course, if there is any water mixed in with the fuel, it can still freeze at around 0°C, but that may depend on if there are any alcohols mixed with the sample. Methyl alcohol is a common additive you can buy to help keep water in your gas tank from freezing at low temperatures.

The thicker, heavier hydrocarbons, like paraffin, will become solid at atmospheric temperatures. Some of the aromatics won't turn solid until -100 to -200°C (-200F to -300F). Not something you'll see outside of a lab.

[bearpaw]

I drove home from down by Utah and last filled with #2 diesel, it was quite a bit cheaper, but going north from Spokan to Colville temps dropped, we were 14 degrees this morning here at the house and I was concerned about gelling....

sounds like I better get some additive....

[ANDERWAGON]

Bearpaw, I would run for some additive. The #2 diesel in Utah is probably at the top end of there tolerances for Pour/ Cloud and Flash.

On a different note if your buying #1 at home you need to make sure it is being additized.  High and low sulfur #1 is used for Heating Oil / Kerosene and Jet Fuel. If its low sulfur for vehicle use it needs a lubricity additive. This is a conductivity inhibitor and a lubricate, sulfur is to diesel what lead was to gas. Most of the time in your area they sale #2 and splash it with #1 when the temperature drop. If you fuel at the same place a lot I would ask them to provide a COA, Certification of Analyst. The things to note from it are the Cetane, Pour Point/Cloud and Flash. You'll have to take there word on the additive as that happen when the delivery truck is loading. The COA is for the base product. 

[Woodchuck]

I run Power Service additive in the white jug every time I fill. It has anti-gel and sulfer additive in it, is not very expensive. I actually get a little better mileage with it than without it. 

[wildweeds]

pretty funny that the goverment states the sulfer content to be X parts per million but yet it's okay to add it back in an additive.....

I run Power Service additive in the white jug every time I fill. It has anti-gel and sulfer additive in it, is not very expensive. I actually get a little better mileage with it than without it. 

[sebek556]

I run Power Service additive in the white jug every time I fill. It has anti-gel and sulfer additive in it, is not very expensive. I actually get a little better mileage with it than without it. 

run it constantly in my 00 7.3l

[Special T]

the other thing about running #1 is that it doesn't have 5% bio diesel in it. That reduces the clouding of the fuel by itself... Several of the additives for anti gelling are also excellent for keeping lubricity in the engine/injectors. 

[wildweeds]

Kinda of a side bar but fuel related

 For your 7.3............Bill hewitts powerstroke website http://powerstrokehelp.com/   .I doubt you've changed the oil in the injection driving train up top on the motor.If you watch this guy's informational video that is free,you will go.......... "OH JUDAS wish I'd have know about this 100,000 miles ago.I changed mine with some farm kid know how,made a recovery tool from my shopvac and a mason jar.What I noticed after I got all the heavy grease that had once been oil out of it,way easier starting in cold weather and just in general. Drill through his site and click on "Fuel system tune up,and watch that 4 part video.

I run Power Service additive in the white jug every time I fill. It has anti-gel and sulfer additive in it, is not very expensive. I actually get a little better mileage with it than without it. 

run it constantly in my 00 7.3l

[mkcj]

I brought 10 gallons of #2 up to the cabin in Winthrop last weekend and when I went to pour it in on Sunday it was like syrup I didn't realize until I had almost 5 gallons in so filled it with #1 in town. It was only in the 20's I thought it would be ok now I know different.

[Dhoey07]

Stanadyne. 

[jeepasaurusrex]

Stanadyne.

I put a bottle of stanadyne in mine about every other tank. 

[JLS]

I'm guessing the #2 you bought in UT is a winter blend #2 that has additives already in it.  Most do, unless you were in extreme southern UT?  You shouldn't have problems with gelling at 14 above with #2. 

Bio diesel is one of the most effective lubricants for diesel fuel pumps.  I don't know if I can find the article, but it tested better at lubricity than about any other diesel fuel additive.  I run it whenever I can.

[sebek556]

actually wildweeds I did do that when i changed a bad injector 

[C-Money]

I run Power Service additive in the white jug every time I fill. It has anti-gel and sulfer additive in it, is not very expensive. I actually get a little better mileage with it than without it. 

run it constantly in my 00 7.3l

I ran that in my old 6.9 in the winter, never had any issues. I did not use it in the summer, but that was before they went to ultra low sulfer fuel. I kinda miss my old pickup, to bad she died.....

[jeepasaurusrex]

I've also noticed that while running winter blend fuel my mileage drops off quite a bit. If you run either the gray or white bottle Power Service it will raise your Cetane level. Think of it as raising the octane level of gas.

[TwoSixFourWins]

I have an 01 cummins and lived in Norhtern MN for 5 years where it was below zero most of the winter. These are my findings with cold weather and diesel.  Use Power Service white bottle but don't overdo it as i am pretty sure it eats injectors if used too much. 911(red bottle)  is the saving grace of cold weather diesel owners. Change your fuel filter BEFORE it gets really cold. DO IT!!!!! Number one decreases power and mileage and is more expensive. Run number 2 with some additive. Run your truck at least a half hour every other day if you can't plug it in. Keep your batteries charged!!!! Nose the front end out of the wind when you park (believe me it works) If you preheat the motor more than one cycle be sure to run the truck enough to recharge the batteries as preheating uses a lot of juice. From what i have seen in my area since i moved here it is not super cold and Number 1 is totally unnecessary. Just splash some power service in every tank and make sure your fuel filter is new before winter. Power strokes are more finicky in the cold so be sure your batteries are up to snuff and plug in the block heater for at least 2 hours if you can. I tsaves a lot on the batteries. Run a thinner oil in the winter if you feel comfortable with it. Just my experience having to live with -30 degrees in Northern MN.

[TwoSixFourWins]

Stanadyne is also good additive as some other posters mentioned.

[Woodchuck]

Where at in northern MN?

[TwoSixFourWins]

Crookston

[Woodchuck]

  PM sent

[Special T]

JLS bio diesel does have great lubricity properties, however it gells at a mcu lower temp than #2. Bio blends are great for low sulfer during warmer months but not so much when its cold. I have not read up a bunch tho on how the differnt additives affect the bio blend..

[JLS]

I'd be curious on the additives.  I've bought it in Missoula, and it said it had winterizing additives in it also.

I've only had my diesel gel up on me one time in North Dakota, minus 30.  I was running straight number 2 with an additive that was plant based and supposed to have anti-gel properties.  It didn't, so you might be on to something.  Honestly, here in WA I'm not too worried about it.

Having operated mine for ten years in the northern plains also, a couple thoughts on twosixtyfour's advice:

Run synthetic oil in the winter if a block heater is not readily available.  Much quicker oil flow and easier startup.

Check your serpentine belt regularly.  I had to change one once that broke on a cold startup in minus 20.  No fun.

Take care of your batteries and cables.  I've had to cycle my intake heater twice on numerous occasions, and it does put a tremendous drain on your batteries.

[wildweeds]

That powerstroke guy reccomends doing that service every 5k for improved and prolonged injector life

actually wildweeds I did do that when i changed a bad injector 

[sebek556]

  i didnt know about it till then 

[TwoSixFourWins]

In cold weather stay the H#LL away from ANYTHING plant based including biodiesel. Especially biodiesel and biodiesel blends.

[bearpaw]

Thanks for the info about #2 diesel getting better mileage. I have done some interstate driving and can see it does get better mileage so i fill with it unless the weather is too cold. 

[TwoSixFourWins]

Oh and one more thing i forgot. Keep your tank at least half full or more as much as possible. Water can condense on the inside of an empty tank and run down in your fuel in cold weather.

[bearpaw]

I've had to cycle my intake heater twice on numerous occasions, and it does put a tremendous drain on your batteries.

When cooler than 40 degrees it seems like I need to either be plugged in or I have to cycle my heaters several times depending how cold it is. I am running a 2003 7.3 ford. Starts fine the first time if over 40.

[JLS]

Is your heater/glow plugs working correctly?  Aren't Fords notorious for losing glow plugs?  I've started my 24V Cummins at -20 without being plugged in, and only cycled the intake heater twice.

[Woodchuck]

  There is also a large solenoid on top of the intake for the glow plugs that gets burnt. You should not have to plug in or cycle the plugs at 40 above. 

[wildweeds]

Your glow plug relay is on its way out,easy to change and from experiance.............. buy the replacement from the Ford Dealer, the replacements I've gotten from Napa ............... sucked and burned out in about a year.

I've had to cycle my intake heater twice on numerous occasions, and it does put a tremendous drain on your batteries.

When cooler than 40 degrees it seems like I need to either be plugged in or I have to cycle my heaters several times depending how cold it is. I am running a 2003 7.3 ford. Starts fine the first time if over 40.

[bearpaw]

I am pretty lost on mechanics, especially diesel, not sure how to tell if there is a solenoid or glow plug problem. If the temp is about 30 it seems I have to cycle 2 or 3 times, if it's 0, then it may take 4-5 times to start. Below zero I don't think it would start after sitting over night without being plugged in.

Any advice on how to find and test the solenoid or glow plugs?

Your glow plug relay is on its way out,easy to change and from experiance.............. buy the replacement from the Ford Dealer, the replacements I've gotten from Napa ............... sucked and burned out in about a year.

I've had to cycle my intake heater twice on numerous occasions, and it does put a tremendous drain on your batteries.

When cooler than 40 degrees it seems like I need to either be plugged in or I have to cycle my heaters several times depending how cold it is. I am running a 2003 7.3 ford. Starts fine the first time if over 40.

[jeepasaurusrex]

Any advice on how to find and test the solenoid or glow plugs?

Here ya go. Pretty quick and easy.

http://powerstrokenation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27553

[fair-chase]

Your glow plug relay is on its way out,easy to change and from experiance.............. buy the replacement from the Ford Dealer, the replacements I've gotten from Napa ............... sucked and burned out in about a year.

   I can attest to the parts store relays burning out very quickly (couple of weeks tops). Get the factory replacement and save time and money, in the long run of course because you never actually save up front when getting factory parts. 

[bearpaw]

Any advice on how to find and test the solenoid or glow plugs?

Here ya go. Pretty quick and easy.

http://powerstrokenation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27553

Great info, thanks.

If I understand correctly, in the photo in the first post on that link, there are two relays, one in the open and one under the hose. For my 2003 I will want to check and/or change the one in the open. And it should be the one closest to the rear of the engine. Is that correct? 

[sebek556]

  one towards the rear

[hdshot]

Does anyone use Seafoam additive for their diesel?  I do and seems to work but don't know enough to recommend it.  Expensive but don't drive my truck except to tow my boat or hunt.

My boat loves it with that 10% ethanol gas.  Thank the Lord for Seafoam with my boat running like garbage without it mixed with ethanol.  I still take the extra time to find the station with ethanol free for car and boat but that doesn't work every time.

[Special T]

Union 76 stations run ethanol free gas.   http://www.76.com/StationLocator.aspx#

[jeepasaurusrex]

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=WA

[sebek556]

Just did the injector oil change for a family friend today 01 7.3l 155000 mile first time its ever had it done. I drove it down to the freeway and back before doing the change to see how it ran. Wow, it actually made a big difference in his truck. It went from kinda sluggish to full power. I did use the prolong(which is freakin' 18 bucks a bottle). Not promising anything here for power gains for everyone, but it really improved his truck. I used a hand vaccum from harbor freight (like 8 bucks) and a spare gallon of delo plus the prolong which was the expensive part.

[bearpaw]

Two things...

1.  I've been running #2 Diesel unless it's real cold and I have noticed better mileage as some of you said.
2.  I changed the relay and the truck starts easy on the first try at 30 degrees. That wouldn't happen before the relay change.

Thanks for the help.

[luckyman]

Just did the injector oil change for a family friend today 01 7.3l 155000 mile first time its ever had it done. I drove it down to the freeway and back before doing the change to see how it ran. Wow, it actually made a big difference in his truck. It went from kinda sluggish to full power. I did use the prolong(which is freakin' 18 bucks a bottle). Not promising anything here for power gains for everyone, but it really improved his truck. I used a hand vaccum from harbor freight (like 8 bucks) and a spare gallon of delo plus the prolong which was the expensive part.

On my last oil change I though I would check and see what the oil looked like in the hpop reservoir. It was just as ugly & black as the oil in the crank case.  After changing the oil in the crank case and driving it a day or so, I looked in the reservoir to see if it still looked nasty. It was totally clean, not even a little dark.  Changing the hpop oil is pretty much unnecessary from what I could see.