Deer and Elk Hunting in Idaho and Montana After Wolf Introduction

[bearpaw]

A factual video illustrating how little impact wolves have.....

[Pathfinder101]

Yellowstone reports that wolves kill cougars. At least once a year on average there judging by their evidence. They like to torture the kittens to get momma runnin into their ambush apparently.

Interesting.  I have never heard that.  Not saying that I don't believe it, just that I had never heard it...

[sebek556]

sitka stop preaching your oh alaska has no problem with wolves, I'm from there and your full of *censored*. GMU's in alaska ahve become know as predator pits due to the fact that is all that is found there now. oh and michigan, yah wife's family is there and tribal members guess what they are raising deer on tribal ground and releasing them to help suplament numbers. Wolves are a smart predator, guess what so is man, if I know my preys numbers have been wiped out in one spot I go somewhere else guess what the kill numbers reported to the state are the same, just a different area. Expample this year I hunted 124, instead of my normal 117 due to the antler restriction so I would improve my chances. and you know what the state reports 1 deer killed, only when you dig deeper do you see the changes. And with the way you talk I know why you are not in alaska anymore, you would be in the tundra face down. They dont play nice with  your kind up there

[Gringo31]

The deal is that Sitka gets several responses to his BS comments, then gets to pick the weakest comment to give a reply to.  I'm done with him.  Our own WDFW openly talks about Federal dollars when it comes to "endangered species", why this is news to him, I have no idea.

I'm writing him off as a liberal idiot who likes to argue.  Maybe his real name is Dallas?  LOL

[seth30]

sitka stop preaching your oh alaska has no problem with wolves, I'm from there and your full of *censored*. GMU's in alaska ahve become know as predator pits due to the fact that is all that is found there now. oh and michigan, yah wife's family is there and tribal members guess what they are raising deer on tribal ground and releasing them to help suplament numbers. Wolves are a smart predator, guess what so is man, if I know my preys numbers have been wiped out in one spot I go somewhere else guess what the kill numbers reported to the state are the same, just a different area. Expample this year I hunted 124, instead of my normal 117 due to the antler restriction so I would improve my chances. and you know what the state reports 1 deer killed, only when you dig deeper do you see the changes. And with the way you talk I know why you are not in alaska anymore, you would be in the tundra face down. They dont play nice with  your kind up there

:yeah:X2

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Cougars kill wolves...?  Haven't heard that before.  Anybody...?

B4F,  was female who migrated to Montana from Idaho after being introduced there, and lived in the mountains just east of Missoula, near Rock Creek, until she was killed by cougar in the winter of 1996.

There's one for you. and as a bonus there were a couple more killed by elk.  One was the alpha female of the Wildhorse Pack in 2002.

[bearpaw]

Yellowstone reports that wolves kill cougars. At least once a year on average there judging by their evidence. They like to torture the kittens to get momma runnin into their ambush apparently.

Interesting.  I have never heard that.  Not saying that I don't believe it, just that I had never heard it...

FYI - I know the houndman who they used for the park cougar study. He told me that they have found every animal imaginable in wolf scat including cougar and bear. He said they eat everything that gets in their way, when the wolves move into a basin, everything pours out away from the wolves.

[sebek556]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17735990/ns/us_news-environment/t/alaska-puts-bounty-wolves/
hmm sounds alot like Canada... want more caribou kill more wolves.. anyone else seeing a trend here? or is it just the people with common sense?

[sebek556]

and before you even start I know the hippie's sued alaska for it and they lost...

[Sitka_Blacktail]

sitka stop preaching your oh alaska has no problem with wolves, I'm from there and your full of *censored*. GMU's in alaska ahve become know as predator pits due to the fact that is all that is found there now. And with the way you talk I know why you are not in alaska anymore, you would be in the tundra face down. They dont play nice with  your kind up there

Alaska has 10,000 wolves. And guess what, overall, cervid #s go up and down depending on how bad the winters are. This particular winter is shaping up to be a bad one there and there will probably be a significant winter kill in many areas.  But they will come back like they always do with time.

As far as predators go, bears, particularly black bears seem to cause the biggest problems up there as far as newborn moose go.

The problem Alaska Dept of Game has right now is it has been infiltrated by the SFW in the form of Corey Rossi and he is pushing an agenda of maxing game herds to their limits, by killing predators.  The trouble is, as most old time Alaskans know, it doesn't matter how many prey animals you can produce in the summer that matters, it's how many you can get through the winter with as little damage to the habitat as you can.  Many biologists with ADF&G are unhappy over this approach. And many former biologists wrote a letter protesting it. The current bios are afraid if they speak out, they'll lose their jobs.  It's a sad day when the people with the real knowledge are afraid to speak their minds.  Rossi and his backers will find out how little they know of game management, but it will be the herds and hunters who suffer from it.  You put too many animals into a winter like this one is shaping up to be and not only do more of them die, but they do serious long term damage to the winter carrying capacity before they do.

I've survived this long in Alaska, I'm not too worried about my future there when I return. 

[Sitka_Blacktail]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17735990/ns/us_news-environment/t/alaska-puts-bounty-wolves/
hmm sounds alot like Canada... want more caribou kill more wolves.. anyone else seeing a trend here? or is it just the people with common sense?

Just so we get it straight, the State of Alaska lost.

"About 40 wolves were killed after the bounty was offered, but the payments were never made to hunters. The judge struck down the incentive program 10 days after it was announced"

"The release contends the payment isn’t a “bounty,” but that’s a matter of semantics. An Alaskan judge who later declared the payments illegal called it a “bounty, pure and simple” in his ruling. "

[sebek556]

so your saying you are siding with Defendors of Wildlife, a known anti-hunting group?

[Pathfinder101]

Reading through this thread, I think I am starting to lean towards Bearpaw's theory.  Sitka seems to be a little more "informed" than just your average concerned hunter that is all for "managing" the wolves, but is really just a "glass is half full kinda guy", that is trying to show that wolves aren't the end of the world.  If that were the case, I think by this point he would have said "OK guys, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree..." and gone on to comment on some blacktail hunting threads or something.  He just seems a little too concerned that we all come around to his way of thinking...

[bearpaw]

sitka stop preaching your oh alaska has no problem with wolves, I'm from there and your full of *censored*. GMU's in alaska ahve become know as predator pits due to the fact that is all that is found there now. And with the way you talk I know why you are not in alaska anymore, you would be in the tundra face down. They dont play nice with  your kind up there

Alaska has 10,000 wolves. And guess what, overall, cervid #s go up and down depending on how bad the winters are. This particular winter is shaping up to be a bad one there and there will probably be a significant winter kill in many areas.  But they will come back like they always do with time.

As far as predators go, bears, particularly black bears seem to cause the biggest problems up there as far as newborn moose go.

The problem Alaska Dept of Game has right now is it has been infiltrated by the SFW in the form of Corey Rossi and he is pushing an agenda of maxing game herds to their limits, by killing predators.  The trouble is, as most old time Alaskans know, it doesn't matter how many prey animals you can produce in the summer that matters, it's how many you can get through the winter with as little damage to the habitat as you can.  Many biologists with ADF&G are unhappy over this approach. And many former biologists wrote a letter protesting it. The current bios are afraid if they speak out, they'll lose their jobs.  It's a sad day when the people with the real knowledge are afraid to speak their minds.  Rossi and his backers will find out how little they know of game management, but it will be the herds and hunters who suffer from it.  You put too many animals into a winter like this one is shaping up to be and not only do more of them die, but they do serious long term damage to the winter carrying capacity before they do.

I've survived this long in Alaska, I'm not too worried about my future there when I return. 

WRONG Sitka, here's proof Alaska F&G supports arial wolf hunts and has for several years because it increases herd numbers. In this same article you can see where guys like Sitka use every imaginable arguement against wolf hunting, but the bottom line is that wolf control benefits herds.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009859073_apusalaskawolfcontrol.html


Alaska: Wolf, bear hunts increasing moose, caribou

An Alaska wildlife management program in which wolves are shot from low-flying airplanes and black bears are baited and snared is helping to increase the numbers of moose and caribou, state wildlife officials say.

By MARY PEMBERTON

Associated Press Writer


 ANCHORAGE, Alaska —
An Alaska wildlife management program in which wolves are shot from low-flying airplanes and black bears are baited and snared is helping to increase the numbers of moose and caribou, state wildlife officials say.
 
The program has long been the target of wildlife conservation groups who view it as state-sponsored slaughter. Last fall, one of those groups launched an ad criticizing then-Gov. Sarah Palin, the Republican vice-presidential candidate, for expanding the program.
 
State officials contend the program is aimed at helping rural Alaskans, who rely on hunting to survive and had complained there wasn't enough game to hunt and eat.
 
The program began under Palin's predecessor, Gov. Frank Murkowski. Private citizens are permitted to shoot wolves from the air or conduct land-and-shoot hunting of wolves in six rural areas of the state.
 
Since the program began in 2003, over 1,000 wolves and hundreds of black bears have been killed in an effort to drive down the number of predators.
 
"I think there are some real success stories here," Bruce Bartley, a spokesman for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, said.
 
The agency recently released its 2008-2009 predation management summary that indicates that moose and caribou numbers in six predator control areas have increased. The agency points to two areas in particular as examples of where the program is showing strong results: the Nelchina Basin area and the southern Alaska Peninsula.
 
The program is getting substantive results in the McGrath area, where it began in December 2003. Last winter and spring, 28 wolves were killed in the McGrath area. Nineteen were taken under the program and nine were hunted and trapped.
 
The agency said the moose population there has grown from 2,774 in 2004 to an estimated 5,500 moose now. The goal is to reach 6,000 to 8,000 moose.
 
"Moose numbers have come up substantially," Bartley said.
 
In the Nelchina Basin area - one of the more contentious predator control areas because it is accessible to urban hunters from the Anchorage area - 119 wolves were killed. Fifty-five of those were taken under the control program and the other 64 were hunted or trapped.
 
That, the state said, helped the moose population increase 27 percent. The harvest, meanwhile, went up 18 percent.

The situation is so improved in the Nelchina Basin that for the first time in more than a decade nonresident hunters will be allowed to hunt bull moose.
 
Bartley said the 50-permit, nonresident hunt should not interfere with the supply of moose for Alaskans because it is being allowed in more remote areas only. Nonresident hunters have been "frozen out" of hunting in that area of the state for years, Bartley said, and there is a benefit to the state to have them in it.
 
"Everybody loves to beat up on the ugly, old nonresident but the fact is they pay a lot of the game management bills in Alaska," he said.
 
Critics say the nonresident hunt being allowed in the Nelchina Basin reveals the true intent of predator control in Alaska. They have said the predator control program is nothing more than a front for big game guides who pay big fees to the state and need trophies for their out-of-state clients.
 
"Predator control programs are simply perpetual killing events designed to give nonresident trophy hunters access to Alaska as a game farm," said John Toppenberg, director of the 1,200-member Alaska Wildlife Alliance, a conservation group.
 
The program is meant to meet the needs of commercial guides and nonresident trophy hunters - not the subsistence needs of rural Alaskans, he said.
 
Wade Willis, a former Fish and Game biologist and outspoken critic of the program, agrees. It looks like predator control is never going to end, he said.
 
"It is a perpetual predator control program, artificial manipulation of the game to create nothing short of a game farm," said Willis, who was formerly associated with Defenders of Wildlife in Alaska.
 
It is up to the Alaska Board of Game to end predator control, but Bartley said the board likely won't stop intensive management in the control areas anytime soon.
 
"I think the board wants to see that they do function normally for a number of years in a row," he said.

[bearpaw]

This study shows how wolf control when herds are declining results in increased numbers of moose caribou and moose. Wolf control prevents the continued decine in the herds, as a result herd numbers increase which then supports increased numbers of wolves and humans benefit too.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3802065

The Journal of Wildlife Management © 1996 Allen Press

Abstract
 Short-term studies in our study area and southeast Yukon have previously documented substantial increases in moose (Alces alces) and caribou (Rangifer tarandus) following wolf (Canis lupus) control. To provide long-term information, we present a 20-year history beginning autumn 1975 when precontrol wolf density was 14 wolves/1,000 km2. Private harvest and agency control kept the late-winter wolf density 55-80% (x̄ = 69%) below the precontrol density during each of the next 7 years. Wolf numbers subsequently recovered in ≤4 years in most of the study area and increased further to between 15 and 16 wolves/1,000 km2 during a period of deep snowfall winters. The post-hunt moose population increased rapidly from 183 to 481 moose/1,000 km2 during the 7 years of wolf control (finite rate of increase, $\lambda _{\text{r}}$ = 1.15) and increased more slowly during the subsequent 12 years ($\lambda _{\text{r}}$ = 1.05) reaching a density of 1,020 moose/1,000 km2 by 1994. The Delta caribou herd increased rapidly during wolf control ($\lambda _{\text{r}}$ = 1.16), more slowly during the subsequent 7 years ($\lambda _{\text{r}}$ = 1.06), then declined for 4 years ($\lambda _{\text{r}}$ = 0.78) from a peak density of 890 caribou/1,000 km2. This decline coincided with declines in 2 adjacent, low-density herds (240-370 caribou/1,000 km2). These caribou declines probably resulted from the synergistic effects of adverse weather and associated increases in wolf numbers. Reduced caribou natality and calf weights were associated with adverse weather. Wolf control was reauthorized to halt the Delta herd's decline in 1993. Similar subarctic, noncoastal systems without effective wolf control have supported densities of 45-417 moose/1,000 km2 (x̄ = 148, n = 20), 100-500 caribou/1,000 km2, and 2-18 wolves/1,000 km2 (x̄ = 9, n = 15) in recent decades. In our 20-year history, 7 initial winters of wolf control and 14 initial years of favorable weather apparently resulted in 19 years of growth in moose, 14 years of growth in caribou populations, and a high average autumn wolf density after control ended (12 wolves/1,000 km2). Benefits to humans included enjoyment of more wolves, moose, and caribou and harvests of several thousand additional moose and caribou than predicted if wolf control had not occurred. We conclude from historical data that controlling wolf populations, in combination with favorable weather, can enhance long-term abundance of wolves and their primary prey, and benefits to humans can be substantial.