Deer and Elk Hunting in Idaho and Montana After Wolf Introduction

[bearpaw]

Sitka is no hunter, these Peta guys love to claim they are hunters so they can push their agenda by baiting hunters into their thinking, don't be fooled. Go through this topic, there is an abundance of data from many of us and opinion from sitka. The only value of this topic is that he is providing a good education to you guys about how the wolf lovers think and work.

If you're as far off on your other opinions as you are on this one bearpaw, I can see your problem.

I'm in my 50's and have hunted since I was 10. I got my two deer in Washington this year. A doe that I drew a second tag for and a buck.  Didn't get an elk tho.

The real value has been I'm showing you that wolves aren't the end of the world.  I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

Obviously I have no proof you are a plant or that you are being paid, but your head appears to be so incredibly deep in the sand that you are either a member or being paid by a wolf group like Jay Kehne "the newly appointed commissioner", or you are simply fooled by all the "disney-like" propaganda regarding wolves.

There has been a preponderance of data shown to refute your claims that wolves will simply "fit in" or that man is somehow to blame for herd declines in these other states. You and elkboy can say whatever you like, I still think you are a Defenders of Wildife member or employee or perhaps a similar group. I see elkboy is new to the forum also, perhaps he is just one of your "Defenders" buddies.

Recent history in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and YNP show us that you are completely and utterly wrong about wolves not impacting big game herds significantly. One of my examples previously mentioned, the gardner late hunts have been completely eliminated due to wolf caused declines in the elk herds.

The facts undisputedly speak for themself.

[Elkaholic daWg]

My question to you is where do you currently live, and how does that make you an expert, and how is your opinion superior to mine and others?

No answer yet.

[Elkaholic daWg]

Very interesting indeed.



A guest blog by Barry Coe –


In what seems on the surface to be a politically correct action of seeking information concerning wildlife management in the state of Idaho, they have committed a few obvious mistakes that exposed their true intention. Their highly publicized ‘Summit’ was rolled out as that meeting. Conducted DURING hunting season, and with invitations extended to several anti-hunting, eco-green groups, and a group of actual past and present IDFG employees, IDFG now wants input on wildlife management. And, they want that input from everyone that doesn’t pay for it or expect the department to do anything other than perpetuate predators and sustain their job at all costs.
 
Rumor has it that this little summit has caused a rift in the ranks. It seems to have been generated right from the new director Virgil Moore; or at least that is where all the fingers are pointing. It seems that this long-time employee of IDFG, and new director, is attempting to return to the status quo of ignore and move forward. Instead of moving in the direction of attempting to get out from under the wolf issue, he now seems to want to change gears and get back in bed with the green, wildlands agenda, and he wants their money. Public input on management? How quaint! If only it didn’t reek of corruption, contempt and collusion. If, in fact, this is the brain child of Mr. Moore, he just flatly needs to go; it is far past time to get a director that is not a long time member of the IDFG’s good old boys club. We have flatly had enough! I suspect if our legislature is not willing to overhaul this department, the time has come to turn to the citizen and the ballot box. We have one very powerful tool at our disposal; initiatives, which are binding if passed and can be used to circumvent a lack of appropriate action by those in government. They do have the ability to change this department in ways that will both form the department in a manner the citizens of Idaho want and to also bring accountability to this long-time rogue department. The good old boys club must be dismantled.
 



 
Barry Coe
Save Western Wildlife

 sounds familiar, libbies moving east with the Washington 
wildlife  department model.

[elkboy]

Didn't know I'd put any radical notions up.  I am no animal rights activist, that is for sure.  Don't know if a few trophy shots would help "prove my credentials", but here you go.  As you can see, I'm more out for meat than antlers (muzzleloader is my weapon of choice).  Am I out of the "Defenders" camp now? 

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Do-nothing management scenarios are definitely not the answer.  It is so easy to get wrapped up in worst-case scenarios ("end of all hunting", "decimated herds", etc.), that we forget that this is a system that can be tweaked via management.  Aggressively hunt (AND trap) wolves in units where game numbers are down, or where max production of game animals is the objective, or where livestock concerns carry the day.

Like it or not (and I get the feeling, most on here don't), wolves are going to be part of the critter list here in WA.  As sportsmen, we need to rally around the pragmatic agenda at this point- argue and advocate (based on science, not just passion or frustration) for aggressive management of a predator....... 

And last thought- can we ease off on bashing each other?  I appreciate that nobody's apathetic on here about wildlife issues.  But accusing each other being PETA plants or undercover greenies, etc. is not going to forward the dialogue between us hunters, and it sure doesn't look good to the rest of society.  My two cents.  (Seems two cents don't go quite as far as they used to- inflation, eh?)

I agree with you elkboy. Whatever else happens, wolves are here to stay, so we need to learn to deal with them and manage them, not sit and wring our hands and give a wink and a nod to those who advocate killing all wolves.  All that attitude does is hand ammunition to the opposition and create more problems for hunters.

[Gringo31]

Sitka....

YOU CAN'T KILL ALL WOLVES.  The things they used in the past will never be allowed again.  Please look at the coyote and tell me how we are going to kill all coyotes even though I personally try my best.  It can NOT be done.  I want the wolf plan to be the same as the coyote plan.....and guess what.....wolves will still be here.

[furbearer365]

Just because they are here does not me i should have to live with them.  The debate is the REINTRODUCTION of these worthless animals, and that has always been the debate.  We are not talking about a native animal that we are trying to exterminate.  We are talking about bringing them back, done so by the hands of man, and none of us can guarantee that a management plan will be in place.  It is out of our hands what the feds will do, and none of us (anti-wolf) people want to stand by while we get our game taken from us and then have to fight the battle with the government and PETA.  WHY CAN YOU NOT GET THAT?  ARE WE REALLY THAT OUT OF HAND IN YOUR OPINION?  YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR SOMETHING YOU CANT GUARANTEE.  TAKE YOUR WOLVES AND SHOVE THEM, I WILL NOT LIVE WITH IT AND LET IT HAPPEN, NOR ALLOW GUYS LIKE YOU (PRO-WOLF) GUYS TAKE GOOD HUNTING FROM MY FAMILY.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

A guest blog by Barry Coe –
 
I Wolves, grizzly bears, soon to be wolverines and all other claimed endangered species are a vast source of federal dollars and we all know, IDFG loves nothing like they love the federal dollar.
 

A source of Federal dollars? Do tell?

In a recent article, Jim (salt shaker) Hayden (IDFG Panhandle Regional Wildlife Manager) made yet another revealing comment. In this interview “Salt Shaker” Hayden seemed surprised that about 50% of the wolves harvested in this current wolf season have come from areas that IDFG didn’t even know contained wolves.

 Hardly surprising. wolves travel great distances. They don't usually stay in one place for long

The level of contempt IDFG obviously has for anyone outside of the department or the federal system is amazingly apparent.

Hmmmm My memory is that Idaho fought the Feds over managing the wolves. The legislature FORBADE the Idaho Department of Fish and Game from having anything to do with wolf management, control, reintroduction. So how do you blame the Department? That was on the legislators. And how did that work out for Idaho? For one thing it delayed the delisting of wolves in Idaho. The Feds went around Idaho and contracted wolf management to the Nez Pierce tribe. The legislature finally realized if they wanted State management of wolves that they had to play along with the Feds and they finally passed a final wolf plan in 2002. The Feds approved that plan and Montana's in 2003 but found Wyoming's to be defective, which held up Idaho and Montana's being able to take over management as originally, all three States had to be on board. So that delay was on Wyoming, not Idaho F&G. In 2004 the Feds modified their plan to separate Idaho and Montana from Wyoming so that Idaho and Montana could start managing wolves on their own. Wyoming refused to co-operate and how is that working for them? Still no State management.  To put the delays in managing wolves on the Idaho Dept of Fish and Game is ridiculous. 

Wolf math just is not that hard. They breed like rabbits, yet have no predators.

Very false statement. Wolves breed nothing like rabbits. Rabbits all breed, wolves in a pack, only the alpha pair breeds. Rabbits or hares can breed up to three times in a year wolves only once. And they do have predators. Each other, and other predators such as cougars. And now that Idaho has taken over managing wolves, humans.

 

They (Idaho Dept of F&G) want nothing worse than to have the hunters of this state out of the equation.

I doubt that is a true statement either. It is not in the Dept of F&G's best interest just for starters.

 

 I suspect if our legislature is not willing to overhaul this department, the time has come to turn to the citizen and the ballot box. We have one very powerful tool at our disposal; initiatives, which are binding if passed and can be used to circumvent a lack of appropriate action by those in government.

Barry Coe
Save Western Wildlife

All I can say to Barry is....Look what happened when the Legislature first injected themselves into this process. Things went south for Idaho. To put the blame on the Department for the Legislature's meddling is wrong thinking. And to put wildlife management up for a vote will be the death of hunting. Don't kid yourself.

[jackmaster]

it isnt true that only the alpha female have pups, in abundent packs the alpha male has mated with other females in the pack, but in the smaller packs it is mainly the alpha male and female that do the breeding and having the pups, dont ask me where i got the info, i cant prove crap but i watched in on one of those discovery channels, and sometimes that is why younger males have been run off or killed because one of the younger males had did his business with a female in the pack, and sometimes the alpha male or female would sometimes kill the puppies from the less dominant but not always, especially in packs with higher numbers

[firefighter4607]

I agree with you elkboy. Whatever else happens, wolves are here to stay, so we need to learn to deal with them and manage them, not sit and wring our hands and give a wink and a nod to those who advocate killing all wolves.  All that attitude does is hand ammunition to the opposition and create more problems for hunters.

Then why are you stating false facts on how wolves are impacting heard populations??? As stating many times on here show what units you are talking about in Mont and ID. People on this site know we will have to deal with wolves in this state and know that the state is not ready to handle the wolf population correctly. You have made comments on here that pissed people off and you are wanting everyone to rally behind you? Really! I don't see many people telling the state to KILL KILL KILL all the wolves in Washington. What I see is alot of people stating FACTS, about the WDFW isn't ready and doesn't have the money or manpower to manage the wolves. That is what everyone is up in arms about.
So you and elkboy must both APPROVE of the current wolve plan? You think its right to have 15 bp's in certain areas of the state before WDFW will have a season on wolves? Ohh yeah that's right even you stated that wolves move and don't stay in one place for too long. So how would you count that pair if they are constantly moving from one area to another? Which would mean it would be hard to keep a pair in that area for a long enough to count as a bp.

Do-nothing management scenarios are definitely not the answer.  It is so easy to get wrapped up in worst-case scenarios ("end of all hunting", "decimated herds", etc.), that we forget that this is a system that can be tweaked via management.  Aggressively hunt (AND trap) wolves in units where game numbers are down, or where max production of game animals is the objective, or where livestock concerns carry the day.

Like it or not (and I get the feeling, most on here don't), wolves are going to be part of the critter list here in WA.  As sportsmen, we need to rally around the pragmatic agenda at this point- argue and advocate (based on science, not just passion or frustration) for aggressive management of a predator.......

I don't see anyone on this thread saying we shouldn't do anything? Please show me where you are seeing that. You talk about aggressive hunting and trapping? Guess what it will never happen in this state. We have had aggressive hunting on coyotes and cougars until 1996. Now the population of cougars and coyotes are very high also they are starting to be seen in areas around Seattle and other cities where they have never been see before. They are killing pet animals and stocking childern. So how long would it before the wolves are the same? Everyone else on this thread seem to united but you and sitka are the ones that are the odd balls of this group.

[Pathfinder101]

Cougars kill wolves...?  Haven't heard that before.  Anybody...?

[bearpaw]

Sitka is no hunter, these Peta guys love to claim they are hunters so they can push their agenda by baiting hunters into their thinking, don't be fooled. Go through this topic, there is an abundance of data from many of us and opinion from sitka. The only value of this topic is that he is providing a good education to you guys about how the wolf lovers think and work.

If you're as far off on your other opinions as you are on this one bearpaw, I can see your problem.

I'm in my 50's and have hunted since I was 10. I got my two deer in Washington this year. A doe that I drew a second tag for and a buck.  Didn't get an elk tho.

The real value has been I'm showing you that wolves aren't the end of the world.  I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

Obviously I have no proof you are a plant or that you are being paid, but your head appears to be so incredibly deep in the sand that you are either a member or being paid by a wolf group like Jay Kehne "the newly appointed commissioner", or you are simply fooled by all the "disney-like" propaganda regarding wolves.

There has been a preponderance of data shown to refute your claims that wolves will simply "fit in" or that man is somehow to blame for herd declines in these other states. You and elkboy can say whatever you like, I still think you are a Defenders of Wildife member or employee or perhaps a similar group. I see elkboy is new to the forum also, perhaps he is just one of your "Defenders" buddies.

Recent history in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and YNP show us that you are completely and utterly wrong about wolves not impacting big game herds significantly. One of my examples previously mentioned, the gardner late hunts have been completely eliminated due to wolf caused declines in the elk herds.

The facts undisputedly speak for themself.

________________________________

elkboy, just because you post some photos of someone who hunted doesn't mean you are not a Defender's member or employee. As I mentioned Jay Kehn claims he's a hunter but has also admitted he's on the Defender's payroll. Posting a few photos also does not refute all the evidence that has been shown supporting the fact that wolves do not fit into our modern ecosystems in Washington, Idaho, MT, etc.

________________________________

You are both welcome to believe as you wish, but don't try to post your disney dreams "of wolves frolicking with the butterflies" on this hunting forum and not expect to be countered with the facts showing how wolves in fact decimate big game herds and livestock.

Sitka you have continueously failed to disprove the actual facts and data presented showing the many wolf impacts on big game herds. At the same time you have failed to support your claim wolves will not have heavy impacts.

FYI - I am committed to working with people to document wolves in WA so there is data available showing where wolves are located. Hopefully the WDFW chooses to use this info. The system currently employed by WDFW is ineffective and in my opinion next to worthless as most citizens do not want contact with the WDFW. I hope the WDFW will anaylize and upgrade their reporting system to better involve hunters and ranchers in monitoring wolves. Currently WDFW has ignored and alienated the very people (hunters and ranchers) who can most help with locating wolves.

Please have a good look at some wolf damage, the rancher who owns this cow (and many others which he has lost) had to put her down and lost all future reproduction in his herd from this cow and from the others. You do the math at $1.20 pound over many generations. But, I guess you are not a rancher so it probably doesn't resonate or matter. The other photos are wildlife killed by wolves, many of them sport killed and not eaten, somehow I imagine (like most wolf lovers) you will say this isn't an impact on the herds.

[bearpaw]

Here are some photos of pets wounded or killed by wolves that sitka doesn't believe will have an impact.


One dog is still on his chain in the backyard...... another dog is still alive after being attacked and half eaten by wolves


hhhhmmmmm no impact:    (sorry, my apologies, there's just no way to sugar coat these factual photos)

[wraithen]

Yellowstone reports that wolves kill cougars. At least once a year on average there judging by their evidence. They like to torture the kittens to get momma runnin into their ambush apparently.

[bearpaw]

Here's another story illistrating how little impact wolves have.... 


http://www.lagrandeobserver.com/News/Local-News/Range-rider-put-back-to-work

Range rider put back to work

Written by Katy Nesbitt, The Observer January 09, 2012 05:19 pm

Will Voss will attempt to keep wolves out of Wallowa County cattle pastures
 After the state confirmed the 21st cattle death to wolves by the Imnaha pack, it put range rider Will Voss back in the saddle to monitor wolves and alert ranchers and biologists of their whereabouts.
 The inability to kill problem wolves due to a stay placed by the Oregon Court of Appeals in October has Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife attempting non-lethal deterrents to quell wolf-caused livestock loss.
 
The Imnaha pack moved down from higher elevations in the Wallowa-Whitman National to the Wallowa Valley in recent days, according to global positioning system collar information from OR-4, the pack’s alpha male.
 
Saturday at 5 a.m. wolf biologist Roblyn Brown called Scott Shear of the Triple Creek Ranch on Tucker Down Road outside of Joseph. She told him OR-4 was in the vicinity of his cattle near Kinney Lake, a regular route used by the pack between the forest and the Zumwalt Prairie.
 
At 5:20 a.m. Shear found a dead heifer 200 yards behind his neighbors’ house in a pasture of 75 replacement heifers scheduled to be bred this spring. The rest of the heifers were bunched up and the fence was mashed in, Shear said.
 
The dead cow was still warm, Shear said, and he believes he scared the wolves off the kill because five wolves were seen in the area later that day from an airplane. On the ground, tracks of four or five wolves were easily seen in the snow, Rod Childers, Oregon Cattlemen’s Association wolf committee chairman said.
 
After the investigation, Pat Matthews of Fish and Wildlife took the carcass to the Ant Flat dump to deter the wolves from returning to the ranch. At 11 p.m. Saturday, the wolves were detected in a pasture where Triple Creek Ranch bulls were located.
 
Shear requested that the state put Voss back on the job as a range rider, a job he performed last summer and fall. Voss will be working overnight to try and keep wolves out of cattle pastures.
 
Shear said he will also be given a radio-activated guard box to scare away wolves, and fladry, electrified, flagged fencing, will soon again adorn calving pastures around the Wallowa Valley in an attempt to prevent wolf/livestock interaction. Yet Shear, who has a lot of experience with wolves on his ranch, is frustrated.
 
“The Upper Valley is no place for wolves; this isn’t working,” said Shear.

Many of the ranchers from the Divide Country between Big Sheep Creek and the Imnaha River west to the Zumwalt Prairie don’t believe that non-lethal deterrents are enough. Todd Nash grazes in the high country outside of Joseph and has lost numerous cows to wolves.
 
“There’s been quite a lot of criticism about the idea of taking out the Imnaha pack. Does that sound more reasonable now? It should,” said Nash.
 
The state cannot fulfill its own order to kill the alpha male and one other wolf because of a lawsuit filed in September by activist groups. However, the state mailed out renewals of its “Caught in the Act” permits that give ranchers and their agents the ability to shoot a wolf in the act of chasing, harassing or biting livestock.
 
Nash said he hopes other counties don’t have to endure what Wallowa County has the past two years. Until September, Defenders of Wildlife compensated ranchers for wolf-killed livestock. In August, Governor John Kitzhaber signed a bill into law that would fill the gap, but has put a halt to funding all new projects until the legislature approves a budget in the upcoming short session.
 
“We are a testing ground so no one else has to go through what we’ve gone through,” Nash said.