Deer and Elk Hunting in Idaho and Montana After Wolf Introduction

[CedarPants]

So your line of reasoning is that ungulates are biologically programmed to eat themselves out of house and home (not a strong survival tactic to develop) and that they do this in fluctuations over time , but that wolves do not do this because its not in their best interest to do so?  Why would one species develop this characteristic and not another, in the same ecosystem?  Doesn't make much sense to me.  Just curious, not being confrontational.

I also think a lot of the problem with this ongoing debate is that people on both sides, when disagreed with, claim that the other side is "uneducated".  One side always claims supreme knowledge and that everything they say is fact while the other side knows nothing and are ill informed.

Also - Jay Kehne, is that you? 

[Dhoey07]

It seems to me your mind is closed Sitka. Are you saying the wolf had nothing to do with the loss of elk in yellowstone, Bighorn, Bitteroot and Lolo. You want us to open our minds....I ask you to do the same. We are looking for a GOOD MANAGEMENT PLAN. GOOD MANAGEMENT IS THE KEY. Open your ears and listen.

I'm not trying to be an A$$. Just asking that you open your mind as you want some others to do.

He never said that wolves had "no effect" .

[NWBREW]

So the wolf effect was minimal? Is that what he meant?

In those areas I mentioned...how much did the wolf affect the decline of the herds? Honest question.

[Dhoey07]

So the wolf effect was minimal? Is that what he meant?

Don't want to speak for the guy, but this is a quote on the previous page

"I never said no effect. I said it's not as bad as you've been told.  There are a lot more issues as far as survival goes that affect deer and elk populations.  The biggest is habitat"

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Overall most of us want responsible management in place with a good solid plan that works. Why don't you?

I have no problem with responsible management. I have no problem with killing problem wolves or even with hunting  or trapping them.

You have to admit, there are many in the hunting community that don't want to see them even in those great areas for wolves that you are talking about.  Wolf eradication is not responsible management.  Advocating SSS is not responsible management. You can't advocate taking them out and then hope to be taken seriously when you talk about responsible management.

The population used poisons on a massive scale combined with constant hunting and trapping to eradicate the wolves. There aren't many animals that could stay around as long as the wolf with that kind of pressure.

Our ancestors wiped out just about everything that lived in the wild, buffalo, deer, elk, beavers, predators, etc. with their ignorance. It's one reason we have great management today.  It wasn't wolves that took everything out.  Wolves were persecuted mostly by ranchers who were worried about their livestock. The same way eagles were persecuted for taking lambs.  Well darn, we wiped out all the native animals they fed on, so all they had left was farm animals to eat, so wipe them out too.  Great logic huh?

[Dhoey07]

So your line of reasoning is that ungulates are biologically programmed to eat themselves out of house and home (not a strong survival tactic to develop) and that they do this in fluctuations over time , but that wolves do not do this because its not in their best interest to do so?  Why would one species develop this characteristic and not another, in the same ecosystem?  Doesn't make much sense to me.  Just curious, not being confrontational.

I also think a lot of the problem with this ongoing debate is that people on both sides, when disagreed with, claim that the other side is "uneducated".  One side always claims supreme knowledge and that everything they say is fact while the other side knows nothing and are ill informed.

Also - Jay Kehne, is that you? 

In my opinion only, the whole "need to hunt or animals would ruin themselves" arguement is a poor one.  There are a ton of species that are not hunted that seem to "manage" themselves fine. 

[Boss .300 winmag]

So the wolf effect was minimal? Is that what he meant?

Don't want to speak for the guy, but this is a quote on the previous page

"I never said no effect. I said it's not as bad as you've been told.  There are a lot more issues as far as survival goes that affect deer and elk populations.  The biggest is habitat"

A habitat (which is Latin for "in inhabits") is an ecological or environmental area that is inhabited by a particular species of animal, plant or other type of organism.[1][2] It is the natural environment in which an organism lives, or the physical environment that surrounds (influences and is utilized by) a species population.

Gee wolves are part of the habitat.

[CedarPants]

So your line of reasoning is that ungulates are biologically programmed to eat themselves out of house and home (not a strong survival tactic to develop) and that they do this in fluctuations over time , but that wolves do not do this because its not in their best interest to do so?  Why would one species develop this characteristic and not another, in the same ecosystem?  Doesn't make much sense to me.  Just curious, not being confrontational.

I also think a lot of the problem with this ongoing debate is that people on both sides, when disagreed with, claim that the other side is "uneducated".  One side always claims supreme knowledge and that everything they say is fact while the other side knows nothing and are ill informed.

Also - Jay Kehne, is that you? 

In my opinion only, the whole "need to hunt or animals would ruin themselves" arguement is a poor one.  There are a ton of species that are not hunted that seem to "manage" themselves fine.

I wasn't making that argument 

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Just curious, why is it every time I type the three s it gets censored? I'm certainly not advocating it. And I see others encouraging  it all over this board and others. 

[Elkslayer]

So your line of reasoning is that ungulates are biologically programmed to eat themselves out of house and home (not a strong survival tactic to develop) and that they do this in fluctuations over time , but that wolves do not do this because its not in their best interest to do so?  Why would one species develop this characteristic and not another, in the same ecosystem?  Doesn't make much sense to me.  Just curious, not being confrontational.

  I was thinking the same thing.

Maybe the wolves are smart enough to realize when they have taken enough game out of one unit to move to the next so as to not decimate that herd.

[Dhoey07]

So your line of reasoning is that ungulates are biologically programmed to eat themselves out of house and home (not a strong survival tactic to develop) and that they do this in fluctuations over time , but that wolves do not do this because its not in their best interest to do so?  Why would one species develop this characteristic and not another, in the same ecosystem?  Doesn't make much sense to me.  Just curious, not being confrontational.

I also think a lot of the problem with this ongoing debate is that people on both sides, when disagreed with, claim that the other side is "uneducated".  One side always claims supreme knowledge and that everything they say is fact while the other side knows nothing and are ill informed.

Also - Jay Kehne, is that you? 

In my opinion only, the whole "need to hunt or animals would ruin themselves" arguement is a poor one.  There are a ton of species that are not hunted that seem to "manage" themselves fine.

I wasn't making that argument 

Just adding my  to your question.  Wasn't trying to say that you  were making an arguement either way.

[jackmaster]

sitka you preach habitat habitat and more habitat, well since logging has all but been banned it makes it hard to create more habitat, and you cant blame it on urbinization because people dont realy build in the mountains, some of the best deer and elk habitat is right in towns and farmlands, if we could do alot more logging we would create alot more habitat for deer and elk, well that aint gonna happen cause a damn spotted owl or a slimy slug or a special snail or whatever else these tree huggers can drum up, so you take no habitat and dump a bunch of wolves in the mix and you have a major recipe for disaster, i cant wait for these wolves to end up in peoples yards like yourself and start picking off the family poodle, what then genius do we do, i can tell you this when it gets to that point which it will because the sportsman are being handcuffed by the libitarian tree huggers and bunny lovers then it will be to late and the state will have to spend millions on millions of dollars to eradicate the wolves like had to be done before, but guess what the state wont have the money and bang have to start jackn prices and cutn jobs to pay for it and it still wont be good enough so the state and tree huggers will be begging the sportsman to help their sorry asses out which we will gladly do because when you get down to the root of it, THE SPORTSMAN ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO TRULY GIVE A DAMN.. 

[CedarPants]

So your line of reasoning is that ungulates are biologically programmed to eat themselves out of house and home (not a strong survival tactic to develop) and that they do this in fluctuations over time , but that wolves do not do this because its not in their best interest to do so?  Why would one species develop this characteristic and not another, in the same ecosystem?  Doesn't make much sense to me.  Just curious, not being confrontational.

I also think a lot of the problem with this ongoing debate is that people on both sides, when disagreed with, claim that the other side is "uneducated".  One side always claims supreme knowledge and that everything they say is fact while the other side knows nothing and are ill informed.

Also - Jay Kehne, is that you? 

In my opinion only, the whole "need to hunt or animals would ruin themselves" arguement is a poor one.  There are a ton of species that are not hunted that seem to "manage" themselves fine.

I wasn't making that argument 

Just adding my  to your question.  Wasn't trying to say that you  were making an arguement either way.

My bad 

[Machias]

I understand Habitat, habitat, habitat. not really sure where my post said I didn't.  Managing the wildlife numbers takes into account the habitat.  So once again if the deer and elk were eating themselves out of house and home, part of that blame of an unhealthy ecosystem lies with the Fish and Game Departments tasked with managing the health of the herds and the habitat.....Right?

Let me ask you another question then Sitka, why is it, the folks who live in these areas are forced to live with a creature that they don't want to live with?  Forced into this situation by people who live in big concrete jungles and generally get close to nature when they watch a Jeep commercial.  Ranchers, farmers, rural folks they are being made to live with the danger, the depredation, the loss of income, etc...  While a big portion of the folks who are forcing this issue and the numbers do not have to deal with any of the consequences.  Want wolves so bad, release them in YOUR neighborhoods and see how fast the scream for management get pretty loud, pretty fast.

[Bob33]

Just curious, why is it every time I type the three s it gets censored? I'm certainly not advocating it. And I see others encouraging  it all over this board and others.

The letter after "R", when three are strung together with no spaces between them, typically refers to illegal behavior. This site does not condone illegal behavior.