Deer and Elk Hunting in Idaho and Montana After Wolf Introduction

[ICEMAN]

Sitka, do you blog about this elsewhere on the web, or is this your first time arguing your points?

[Wenatcheejay]

Reading through this thread, I think I am starting to lean towards Bearpaw's theory.  Sitka seems to be a little more "informed" than just your average concerned hunter that is all for "managing" the wolves, but is really just a "glass is half full kinda guy", that is trying to show that wolves aren't the end of the world.  If that were the case, I think by this point he would have said "OK guys, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree..." and gone on to comment on some blacktail hunting threads or something.  He just seems a little too concerned that we all come around to his way of thinking...

Sikta is using a form of debate called "agitation propaganda." It is designed to stir emotional response in detractors of a point of view making it easy to point out emotional behavior while dismissing their ideology or their stance all together. It is Marxist in nature usually. (Or that is where it orginated.)

Sitka, regardless of anything else is obviously a wolf propagandist. I do however agree that black bears hurt young deer and elk in their first few weeks of life. That is why I support a general spring bear hunt (not permit only) in Washington. Cougar season should be alligned with it in an open season to aid it the recruitment of the young into herds. I have advocated for this in 2011 at WDFW meetings and am on record as doing so.

The label "Wolf Propagandist" is more fitting in my opinion for people who only speak from their side of the debate. We also have to understand wolves are a tool. Truth is a funny thing. The Government claims only one livestock animal was killed by wolves in Washington? No other confict offically exists? (So sayith the Government.) But, is that truth when the people know different? Nazi's said the Jews just moved on. (So sayith the Government.) We can not take Conservation Northwest and Defenders of Wildlife at their word. They have an agenda. They are admittedly bias to the North American Model of Game management. These same folk don't even want to allow members of the NRA to buy license plates to fund hunter's education in this State. They want that money for their agendas exclusively. That is how they get millions and we help fund them.

Just think about this, if 200,000 Washington hunters did not by one special permit this year and instead choice to fund a pro-hunting advocacy group with that $7.10. We would have $1.5 million dollars to counter Wolf Propaganda with real data. But we don't realize our power. People like the Defenders and Con ideology have funds from all over the world. We used to have funds from the Pittman Roberston. What we have not all realized is these folks have redirected these funds to their causes, and those causes are to undermine ours.

[grundy53]

Reading through this thread, I think I am starting to lean towards Bearpaw's theory.  Sitka seems to be a little more "informed" than just your average concerned hunter that is all for "managing" the wolves, but is really just a "glass is half full kinda guy", that is trying to show that wolves aren't the end of the world.  If that were the case, I think by this point he would have said "OK guys, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree..." and gone on to comment on some blacktail hunting threads or something.  He just seems a little too concerned that we all come around to his way of thinking...

Sikta is using a form of debate called "agitation propaganda." It is designed to stir emotional response in detractors of a point of view making it easy to point out emotional behavior while dismissing their ideology or their stance all together. It is Marxist in nature usually. (Or that is where it orginated.)

Sitka, regardless of anything else is obviously a wolf propagandist. I do however agree that black bears hurt young deer and elk in their first few weeks of life. That is why I support a general spring bear hunt (not permit only) in Washington. Cougar season should be alligned with it in an open season to aid it the recruitment of the young into herds. I have advocated for this in 2011 at WDFW meetings and am on record as doing so.

The label "Wolf Propagandist" is more fitting in my opinion for people who only speak from their side of the debate. We also have to understand wolves are a tool. Truth is a funny thing. The Government claims only one livestock animal was killed by wolves in Washington? No other confict offically exists? (So sayith the Government.) But, is that truth when the people know different? Nazi's said the Jews just moved on. (So sayith the Government.) We can not take Conservation Northwest and Defenders of Wildlife at their word. They have an agenda. They are admittedly bias to the North American Model of Game management. These same folk don't even want to allow members of the NRA to buy license plates to fund hunter's education in this State. They want that money for their agendas exclusively. That is how they get millions and we help fund them.

Just think about this, if 200,000 Washington hunters did not by one special permit this year and instead choice to fund a pro-hunting advocacy group with that $7.10. We would have $1.5 million dollars to counter Wolf Propaganda with real data. But we don't realize our power. People like the Defenders and Con ideology have funds from all over the world. We used to have funds from the Pittman Roberston. What we have not all realized is these folks have redirected these funds to their causes, and those causes are to undermine ours.

I totally agree!

[wraithen]

It would help if we could have a bankroll fund starter to run emotional campaigns to counter those of the anti's. I didn't know there was an actual term for sitka's methods but they were easy enough to spot. Seems like the same way a big chunk of politicians are running their campaigns. I never understood why we make it so easy to be infiltrated but we can't seem to infiltrate them.

[sebek556]

It would help if we could have a bankroll fund starter to run emotional campaigns to counter those of the anti's. I didn't know there was an actual term for sitka's methods but they were easy enough to spot. Seems like the same way a big chunk of politicians are running their campaigns. I never understood why we make it so easy to be infiltrated but we can't seem to infiltrate them.

to have them fit in with us is easy throw on some camo grab a coffee and hang out, for us to fit in with them, we kinda stick out wearing hip waders and a air freshener to put up with all the  floating around filling up the room 

[seth30]

Be careful of the trout line that is laid out in this thread, the bait is dangerous.

[furbearer365]

Sitka, you make me so sick that i have officially taken the Sitka Blacktail off my list of animals to hunt.  JUST GO AWAY.  I would say "take a hint" but i think we are way past that.  If i had your beliefs i would have to shave in the shower because there is no way i could look at myself in the mirror every morning.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

WRONG Sitka, here's proof Alaska F&G supports arial wolf hunts and has for several years because it increases herd numbers. In this same article you can see where guys like Sitka use every imaginable arguement against wolf hunting, but the bottom line is that wolf control benefits herds.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009859073_apusalaskawolfcontrol.html

Alaska: Wolf, bear hunts increasing moose, caribou

An Alaska wildlife management program in which wolves are shot from low-flying airplanes and black bears are baited and snared is helping to increase the numbers of moose and caribou, state wildlife officials say.

Wrong Bear Paw. This was forced on the bios by people higher up who were put in charge to try to prove they can ramp up cervid populations by taking out predators.

Will it work? Sure in the short term. But as I've said before, especially in Alaska of all places, it's not how many animals you can produce, it's how many you can get through the winter.  It's all about winter carrying capacity and what that is, is different from year to year.  The more snow, the less that is.  You could get rid of every predator there is and it won't change the fact that One bad winter will take out most of your herd, especially if it is overloaded with animals. And the damage they do before they die takes decades to repair.

Alaska learned this lesson once before. Predator populations was knocked down to next to nothing and moose and caribou herds grew to all time highs. Then the inevitable happened, a series of bad winters wiped out the great herds and it took many years of careful management to bring them back. Predators were recognized as an important part of the whole dynamic. Now a group has gotten in control and thinks they don't have to believe the lessons of the past.  They've been encouraged by a series of relatively mild winters that have allowed herds to rebuild. But it's just a matter of time before the old lessons become apparent again.  And the way this winter is starting, this could be the year that teaches them.

And believe me, not all Alaskan hunters agree with this "new" approach. 

From a very Alaskan hunting forum.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/95256-Brown-Bear-Snaring

And I've been asked about my comments about SFW.  As I said, they have been infiltrating management in Alaska as well as other western states. Either through getting "their guys" into the upper echelons of management, or by greasing the right wheels.  Their reward is getting policies they favor  passed, plus they get awarded coveted tags to auction at their annual meetings that help them raise the funds they grease the wheels with. And it's not just a few tags either.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50889688-76/wildlife-deer-percent-utah.html.csp

They preach that they are pushing for changes that will help the common hunter, but it hasn't exactly turned out that way.

[Gringo31]

I can't let it go....

This is NOT a debate if winter kill happens! 

This is NOT a discussion if hard winters affect game populations!



I think the part you can't understand is this......WITH ALL OTHER ASPECTS BEING THE SAME, WHAT EFFECT DO WOLVES HAVE ON UNGULATE POPULATIONS?

IF we can agree that they eat and waste more than we would like predators to take, and then we reduce said predators, would that or would that not leave more harvest for us? 


Let me put it this way....

Deer/elk/moose are a crop.  We want to protect that crop so we can harvest it.  The more the fungus, bugs, disease etc. eat of our crop, the less we get to harvest for our efforts.  We don't grow crops to feed the catepillers!  Does this mean I want every bug in the world killed???  No.  But, we want to put in the work to protect our crop, better the habitat so we can all enjoy a sustainable harvest.  Every farmer has hard years, often weather related!  But, they also pull weeds 

[Elkaholic daWg]

Well it sure as hell hasn't been "bad winters" that have devastated deer, elk, and moose numbers in Idaho or Montana.

[seth30]

Standard *censored* approach, they blame everything else.  This red star hypocrite has done nothing for the site but stir the pot. 

[Jack Diamond]

makes me wonder whatever happened to that other guy"Robert B' or something like that???

[sebek556]

he came up with a new name..

[Wenatcheejay]

I can't let it go....

This is NOT a debate if winter kill happens! 

This is NOT a discussion if hard winters affect game populations!



I think the part you can't understand is this......WITH ALL OTHER ASPECTS BEING THE SAME, WHAT EFFECT DO WOLVES HAVE ON UNGULATE POPULATIONS?

IF we can agree that they eat and waste more than we would like predators to take, and then we reduce said predators, would that or would that not leave more harvest for us? 


Let me put it this way....

Deer/elk/moose are a crop.  We want to protect that crop so we can harvest it.  The more the fungus, bugs, disease etc. eat of our crop, the less we get to harvest for our efforts.  We don't grow crops to feed the catepillers!  Does this mean I want every bug in the world killed???  No.  But, we want to put in the work to protect our crop, better the habitat so we can all enjoy a sustainable harvest.  Every farmer has hard years, often weather related!  But, they also pull weeds 

See Gringo, this is the apex of what we fail to see. In the North American Model ungulates are managed with hunting a major factor in animal populations and trends. We fund the program. As such we have expected a return. In the model that has been thrust upon us that is irrelevant. WE are irrelevant to ecosystem management. The spirit of hunting will go on but not the North American Model if Sikta and ilk have their way. And unfortunately for now they are winning at blitzkrieg speed. I see where it seems IDFG is caving to this mentality dispite direct mandates against it.

Sitka is dead wrong to say that killing wolves does not work. It already did when they were removed. What is correct is without proper management the animals starve. If hunting them is not allowed then yes, they overpopulate and die in winters, disease, and other ways. More and more hunting is restricted in undefendable ways. PC is far over played on both sides. It stems from user group selfishness as much as those who hate humans. We have to decide if we are going to managed for ecosystems that are self sustaining or the North American Model. I am disappointed that this point is not agreed upon.

If we are going manage for ecosystems then end general hunting and the management that goes with it. If we are going to keep the North American Model then there needs to be a total shakup inside all departments that manage Big Game. That won't happen until there is new leadership at the State and Federal level. (If Ever)

[bearpaw]

I had thought Sitka said there were no impacts in Montana/Idaho..... I find the comments from each side interesting....
http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/fwp-may-seek-wolf-season-extension-for-west-fork-of/article_8d023b24-0739-56a5-b43d-991209cd593a.html?print=1

FWP may seek wolf season extension for West Fork of the Bitterroot
 
By PERRY BACKUS - Ravalli Republic | Posted: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:15 pm

Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks officials plan to ask for another extension to the wolf hunting season in the West Fork of the Bitterroot.

So far, hunters have only killed three of the 18 wolves allowed in the area. All of those three were killed before the state's general season ended in November.

"We feel like we need to reach that quota," said FWP Region 2 Director Mack Long. "We think it's very important to get predators in that area under control."

The proposal that will be offered the FWP Commission this month would extend the season in the West Fork wolf hunting unit to April 1, or until the quota is met.

Long said the department will be looking at other alternatives that might be used to make that happen.

"Our No. 1 priority was to have sportsmen accomplish the harvest," Long said. "We're very supportive of a season extension. We are hoping people will support that."

The state has already extended the wolf hunting season to Feb. 15 in units where quotas have not been filled.

In this second-ever wolf hunting season in Montana, Long said the state is learning that wolves can be challenging for sportsmen to hunt.

"I think it depends on a lot of different environmental factors," Long said. "HD 250 might be a textbook example of a landscape that is hard to operate in."

Local sportsmen want the state to do more to ensure the quota is met.

Ravalli County Fish and Wildlife Association president Tony Jones said that while that organization is happy the state is considering extending the season, it believes that FWP needs to allow sportsmen to use trapping, baiting and electronic calls to harvest wolves.

Jones said the state was on board with allowing the federal government to use whatever means it had at its disposal to reduce wolf numbers to 12 in the west fork before wolves were delisted under the 10(j) rule.

"These extensions are not getting it done," he said. "FWP is not doing anything other than extending the season. We would like them to do more."

"There is no reason to think that an extension by itself is going to work," Jones said. "Where is the spike going to come from? Hunters just aren't getting it done with the tools that they have."

Marc Cooke of the National Wolf Watchers Coalition said that group is adamantly opposed to extending the season.

"It's just unjust," he said. "Why are they shutting it down everywhere else and keeping it open here? They are appeasing special interest groups, like hunters, livestock producers and county commissioners."

Cooke said keeping the season open longer could provide a black eye for Ravalli County.

"Pregnant wolves getting ready to den are going to be killed," he said. "It's not going to look good one bit for Ravalli County hunters to be out there hunting pregnant wolves."

Reach reporter Perry Backus at 363-3300 or pbackus@ravallirepublic.com.