4 pt. minimum whitetail units

[DBHAWTHORNE]

Here in 121 we have a different scenario. It's not that we have too many does, we really have too few bucks.

Like WACoyote, I was also on the whitetail group.

Due to heavy winter kill and heavy predator losses it appeared to me that our deer numbers were at about 40% of previous years before the 2 back to back hard winters. Rightfully the WDFW commission cut back on doe permits to let the herd grow.

But when you cut back on doe permits it places more hunters after bucks at a time when herd numbers are already low. The only sensible thing to do is also cut back on buck harvest to prevent further destruction of the buck/doe ratio. By cutting back harvest of both bucks and does, the herd will recover faster and with a better buck/doe ratio.

I am uncertain if it's a good long term rule, we will know more in 4 more years, but for reducing the buck harvest immediately it worked well and that was my intention in supporting the rule.

There is a lot of private land and there is a lot of public access in these units. Because the public land gets hunted harder, and there are no crops on public land, I would say there are definitely more deer on most of the private land. However, the Clayton transect which I think is in a mostly private land agricultural area, had about the worst buck/doe ratio. It's also more open country in many areas so that could also be why it has a lower buck/doe ratio.

  I can already attest to the fact that the populations are looking better after only one year.

[BOWHUNTER45]

Yeah that makes good sense to me to Bearpaw ...I guess the private land holds all the deer until they get shot at then they move to higher and safer ground ..then after hunting season is over here they come back !!

[huntnnw]

it sure is.. my brother lives out west of colville and the deer numbers are WAY up .. I saw last time out I drive the back way from colville to his place and see 50+ deer in a short drive.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

OK, look at the facts in the OP. If those numbers are true, then 4333 hunters took 465 4 point + bucks in 2011 in unit 117. And in 2012 3533 hunters took 531 4 point + bucks.

So 20% less hunters took 14% more mature bucks.

Now those bucks in2011 were produced with no antler restriction in place to get them to that size as the year before any buck was legal. That leaves only one of two scenarios possible. Either the any buck system was working and the herd was recovering with the old any buck system, or the new 4 point + system is putting excess pressure now on the larger bucks because hunters can't shoot smaller bucks, so they are holding out for big ones.

Another way to look at it, in 2010 the hunter success rate on 4 pt or larger bucks was 10.7%. in2011 the hunter success rate on 4 pt or better bucks was 15%. Again, those bucks got to that size under the any buck system, so was management working, or did the antler restriction cause greater pressure on the larger bucks? You can't have it both ways. That's a 40% increase in harvest rate of 4 pt or better bucks that got that big under an any buck regime.

[WAcoyotehunter]

Don't hunt there.  Good grief- is everyone going to argue about two units for the next three years?  Wait and see what happens and I'll happily eat my words if it's a failure. 

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Don't hunt there.   

The problem is, now everybody and his brother is going to hunt there because they all think there is going to be a bonanza of big bucks there. So there will be even more pressure on the bigger bucks. Conventional wisdom being what it is.

[JimmyHoffa]

Don't hunt there.  Good grief- is everyone going to argue about two units for the next three years?  Wait and see what happens and I'll happily eat my words if it's a failure.

Probably.  Because many horn hunters will start to pressure WDFW for an expansion into other units and toward other deer species.

[buckfvr]

For the umpteenth time......whitetails can be 4pts on a side at age 1 1/2....I checked 3 this year that were decent 4Xs at 2 1/2 yrs old.  If that is your definition of mature bucks, I suggest you read up on it a bit........

[Dhoey07]

Don't hunt there.  Good grief- is everyone going to argue about two units for the next three years?  Wait and see what happens and I'll happily eat my words if it's a failure.

Don't hunt there?! That's 50% of the land east of the cascades that has a late hunt 

[NWBREW]

For the umpteenth time......whitetails can be 4pts on a side at age 1 1/2....I checked 3 this year that were decent 4Xs at 2 1/2 yrs old.  If that is your definition of mature bucks, I suggest you read up on it a bit........

That is what many of us on here are trying to say. I think it may be good but who knows. All it will do is add a year or two to the younger ones....maybe let them become a little smarter.

[buckfvr]

it sure is.. my brother lives out west of colville and the deer numbers are WAY up .. I saw last time out I drive the back way from colville to his place and see 50+ deer in a short drive.

I also live west of Colville, am retired, and spend a lot of time wandering......Yes, deer numbers are up compared to last few years, but still way down from over 5 years ago.....Once the deer scatter to their normal haunts, the appearance will be of few deer, with the exception of alfalfa fields.  For every field seemingly full of deer, I can show you a ridge line seemingly void of deer.  If you are really really into deer, live here and pay attention to what is really happening,  I'm  pretty sure most would agree there is no huge surplus of does, and the bucks are not getting relentless pressure.......

Yes NWBREW.......I also strongly support the 4pt rule,  my criteria is mature  deer, not just a 4pt.

[muleyguy]

have to keep hammering this point home because nobody ever seems to want to talk about it..............QDMA and EVERY eastern US whitetail antler restriction rules are part of a two tier system;

they are predicated on a large antlerless harvest because whitetail herds back East are probably 5 times as productive as our herds here;  when you couple an APR, with an "option" for the hunter to take an antlerless animal, they have found that in many cases hunters will simply shoot an antlerless deer instead of waiting around for a 4 pt animal;  ALL the data (and I have posted it on here numerous times) shows that with these large antlerless quota's, combined with APR's there is a very, very, very tiny increase in the recruitment of animals into the 4.5 yr old class;  what they have found is that the APR just "shifts" the harvest up one age class;  if everybody used to be shooting 1.5 yr old deer, they are now shooting 2.5 yr old deer;  AND, very few bucks are making it past their second year;

now, contrast this with what WA state has going on;  we have un-productive herds, so we cannot offer any meaningful antlerless component;  so ALL the harvest is focused on bucks and none on does;

Another HUGE difference is that in many Eastern states, the whitetail hunt occur AFTER the rut;  so, at least you have some of the mature bucks still in the population at that point;  AND the bucks are in a post rut situation where they are not running around looking for a piece of a$$ all day long; 

  our whitetail harvest is before, and in the middle of rut, in these units;

So, as huntnw likes to point out, comparing our whitetail herds to those in Eastern US is comparing apples to oranges...........what works back there (APR's) will not work here because of the different type of whitetail population we have, no antlerless opportunities to "pull" harvest away from bucks, and hunts that occur in the middle of the rut.

the numbers I ran are pretty simple:

I use "hunter days" because this is a much  better reflection of what is going on;

Bottom line is that in 2011 there were 30% FEWER hunter days, but, the harvest of 4pt+ animals went UP 10%;

So, sitting here right now, you have decreased the number of mature bucks in the population by more then you would have with a normal season;  and, you increased the number of immature bucks in the population because you protected them;

so, during the breeding season this year in these units, you most likely had a lower age class buck doing the breeding (on average) then you have in the past;  statistically this has to be the outcome because you protected ALL of the 1.5 yr old bucks and increased the harvest of the mature bucks.

  there is LOTS of data that shows that lowering the age class of the bucks that are doing the breeding results in lower fawn recruitment.  and, this makes intuitive sense........how productive would the US be if 13 yr old boys were making all the babies???

I counted 92 extra 4pt+ bucks harvested in those units, so, right off the bat, after year #1, that herd has 92 fewer mature bucks in it; 

next year, when all the hunters return, and "hunter days" return to normal (probably goes higher actually) then you are going to see a huge increase in the level of harvest of the 5pt+ category;

you obviously will see a big increase in the 4pt class;  but, if you look at the "data"  what it shows is that in other APR whitetail areas, where there is a huge antlerless component, and the hunt does not occur during the rut, and the herd is much more productive, they see very tiny improvements of recruitment into the 4.5 yr age class;

now, contrast that with what we have here;  low productivity herds, no antlerless component, hunting allowed during the rut;  it isn't hard to see how  this is going to end...........

bottom line is we have year #1 down and there are fewer mature bucks in the population and more immature bucks;  the rule has successfully, after year 1, reduced the average age of the buck in these units;

for all the proponents, you had better hope hunter days stays 30% lower permanently..........because that is the only thing that will prevent this rule from permenantly reducing the average age class in these units; 

[dreamunelk]

Something that seams to have slipped everyone's mind is natural mortality.  Young bucks have a high natural mortality rate.  They are still learning and will make mistakes.  At conception it is considered a 50/50 or 1 to 1 ratio.  However, in a natural unhunted population you never see this because of the high natural mortality of the young and youthful 1 - 3 year olds.  So many of the young bucks that survived the hunting season will likely not live to be 4 points.  My bet is you will see and even greater decline in the mature buck to doe ratio over time. 

This whole mess is just another form of Ballet box biology.  In many ways the same narrow minded self important feelings that got hound hunting, bear baiting, and trapping outlawed.

[BOWHUNTER45]

The thing that Washington has going for them is they only set the seasons for three years ...So let it play out and then we can disguss this again  Like back in Pa they have been hammering the doe for a few more years than 3 ....

[DBHAWTHORNE]

OK, look at the facts in the OP. If those numbers are true, then 4333 hunters took 465 4 point + bucks in 2011 in unit 117. And in 2012 3533 hunters took 531 4 point + bucks.

So 20% less hunters took 14% more mature bucks.

Now those bucks in2011 were produced with no antler restriction in place to get them to that size as the year before any buck was legal. That leaves only one of two scenarios possible. Either the any buck system was working and the herd was recovering with the old any buck system, or the new 4 point + system is putting excess pressure now on the larger bucks because hunters can't shoot smaller bucks, so they are holding out for big ones.

Another way to look at it, in 2010 the hunter success rate on 4 pt or larger bucks was 10.7%. in2011 the hunter success rate on 4 pt or better bucks was 15%. Again, those bucks got to that size under the any buck system, so was management working, or did the antler restriction cause greater pressure on the larger bucks? You can't have it both ways. That's a 40% increase in harvest rate of 4 pt or better bucks that got that big under an any buck regime.

I saw the numbers.

Year      GMU     DOE    BUCK         TOTAL   4pt+
2011     117      121    535        656   531
2010     117      124    912          1,036    465

2011     121      184    613            797     597
2010     121      182   1,254        1,436    571

(the 5pt+ harvest remained relatively unchanged)

What I see is (theoretically) is 480 extra bucks that survived in 117 (99.9 percent that will be at least 4pt minimum this next season...of course there will be some winter/predator loss but those losses would happen regardless.

In 121 I see (theoretically) 639 extra bucks that survived (99.9 percent that will be at least 4pt minimum this next season..of course there will be some winter/predator loss but those losses would happen regardless.