End of salmon fishing eventually???

[teal101]

Teal101-

The points you make are completely valid and were true causes of fish decline. But we do not do any of these practices (damming is an issue on some rivers... hatchery fish is not really a issue here, and the indians are pushing for the elwa hatchery...) anymore. It is really easy to play out the P.R. rhetoric of its not the indians fault we did it, because they were doing it long before us with no problems.

The reasons you listed were the cause of the problem we have now, but we cannot take it back and the damage has been done. We have to focus on corrective and rehabilitation methods now. It is a case of we did it now the indians have to help us fix it. We have stopped the bad practices that decimated the fish populations, now it is the indians turn, there is simply to many people living in this country now to let the indians have free reign!

The indians used to net for sustenance that is no longer the case, they are netting for profit, and allot of the time sacking fish and leaving them rot, along with many other wasteful practices. And they do this all with impunity because the general public is brainwashed into thinking it is all of our past generations faults for what we did to the salmon/indians and for some reason we need to pay the price by letting the indians do whatever they want. Well unfortunately the indians are not responsible people and are overfishing the limited fish populations we have, and it doesn't matter the reasons we have limited fish, it matters now how we can recover this great species for generations to come.

I get that the indians still want to fish, Great! Let them do it with a pole and license just like every other citizen that enjoys the comforts and freedoms of this great nation. The indians are all grown up now, we have given them a huge apology for what has happened to there ancestors and now its time for them to live like they respect what they have!

Do you disagree?

Thanks,
H&F

We have not stopped the bad practices.  Many irrigation lines still run without screens, dams still block rivers, logging still removes habitat, ranching still encroaches on Salmon habitat, expansion of the human population has taken it's fair share of land away, and we are STILL putting hatchery fish in the system.  I read a recent study that was regarding Bull trout that linked reproductive success with lack of roads.  The study showed a definite decline in reproductive success of the fish as road densities increase, yet we still populate these kind of areas.  If you look at the map I posted you'll see the majority of lost habitat to spawning is behind permanent dams.  Those shaded areas are areas that used to be used, not potential spawning ground.  You're right we can not take back what has been done, but to really say anything that needs to be done is getting done is flat out wrong.  The management barely does any habitat restoration on the scale it should.  I know this isnt 100% their fault as politics play a huge role.  The fact that they were able to breach the Elwha dam amazed me.  Then you also have the appropriation of funds.  The general populace wants an immediate return for their investment, which is where hatcheries come into play.  If we took 50% of the hatchery money and put it in to habitat restoration I dare say we may see results 5-10 years down the road, but that does not suit the population.  People want to catch fish now and it makes it hard for management to dump the hatcheries.

I do not disagree that what the indians are doing now is wrong, granted it is not all of them.  We destroyed the runs and current practices by us and the "new natives" are not in any way shape or form helping the population.

[teal101]

why do i always here how great the salmon numbers have been the last few years? i hear one person say numbers are way up and then i hear people act like salmon are almost extinct?

The numbers being up is comparative to the average over the past few decades after the major salmon decline.  Imagine our rivers with Salmon runs closing in on the Alaskan runs, it once happened.

[Special T]

"Many irrigation lines still run without screens" If that is the case then they open themselves to some stiff fines... I also know that no one will give a screen mesh size for the screen. the only answer you get is  " NO SALMON IN THE IRRIGATION DITCH!"  Not saying i completely disagree, but there is VERY little common sense employed to solve the problem.  Because3 of this there are SO MANY ways to improve the situation it boggles the mind making it seem impossible...  I THINK THIS IS ON PURPOSE! If not deliberately then because the bureaucracy cannot make any real decisions and INDECISION is a decision, just one they do not have to take accountability for.

[teal101]

"Many irrigation lines still run without screens" If that is the case then they open themselves to some stiff fines... I also know that no one will give a screen mesh size for the screen. the only answer you get is  " NO SALMON IN THE IRRIGATION DITCH!"  Not saying i completely disagree, but there is VERY little common sense employed to solve the problem.  Because3 of this there are SO MANY ways to improve the situation it boggles the mind making it seem impossible...  I THINK THIS IS ON PURPOSE! If not deliberately then because the bureaucracy cannot make any real decisions and INDECISION is a decision, just one they do not have to take accountability for.

Screens have been required since the early 1900's and many places still do not have them and are unregulated.  There is little enforcement for existing items compared to new construction.  I can not comment on the screen size issue, although I am tempted to see what answer I get when I call and if it is something without a standard then it needs to be addressed.  Politics play a huge role in restoration, we have to do what the people want first and foremost followed by the Salmon.  Every aspect of restoration is a battle with these fish as many of the problems facing the salmon are aspects of NW life that are engrained in our lives.

[JimmyHoffa]

A lot of the cost for the restoration is being eaten up by consulting groups, feasibility studies and administrative costs for the different groups.  The state awards all kinds of money to areas for salmon projects--usually things like replacing a culvert, but sometimes the groups get money and just do studies and make recommendations for more money.  (the original amount isn't close for the project anyways) 

[Special T]

 

I know several people that have talked aboutthe screen issue and they reside in E WA.

[teal101]

A lot of the cost for the restoration is being eaten up by consulting groups, feasibility studies and administrative costs for the different groups.  The state awards all kinds of money to areas for salmon projects--usually things like replacing a culvert, but sometimes the groups get money and just do studies and make recommendations for more money.  (the original amount isn't close for the project anyways)

Cant disagree with ya there.  Like I said politics, bureaucracy, it's all hindering actual restoration.

[PlateauNDN]

Teal101-

The points you make are completely valid and were true causes of fish decline. But we do not do any of these practices (damming is an issue on some rivers... hatchery fish is not really a issue here, and the indians are pushing for the elwa hatchery...) anymore. It is really easy to play out the P.R. rhetoric of its not the indians fault we did it, because they were doing it long before us with no problems.

The reasons you listed were the cause of the problem we have now, but we cannot take it back and the damage has been done. We have to focus on corrective and rehabilitation methods now. It is a case of we did it now the indians have to help us fix it. We have stopped the bad practices that decimated the fish populations, now it is the indians turn, there is simply to many people living in this country now to let the indians have free reign!

The indians used to net for sustenance that is no longer the case, they are netting for profit, and allot of the time sacking fish and leaving them rot, along with many other wasteful practices. And they do this all with impunity because the general public is brainwashed into thinking it is all of our past generations faults for what we did to the salmon/indians and for some reason we need to pay the price by letting the indians do whatever they want. Well unfortunately the indians are not responsible people and are overfishing the limited fish populations we have, and it doesn't matter the reasons we have limited fish, it matters now how we can recover this great species for generations to come.

I get that the indians still want to fish, Great! Let them do it with a pole and license just like every other citizen that enjoys the comforts and freedoms of this great nation. The indians are all grown up now, we have given them a huge apology for what has happened to there ancestors and now its time for them to live like they respect what they have!

Do you disagree?

Thanks,
H&F

Yes, right here I disagree.  I disagree that your mentality on this subject is about as narrow-minded as it's going to get.  Sure there is wastage and abuse done by Tribal Members but for the most part majority are not like that.  I for one, am not like that but yet, here you are saying I am and rolling me up into the category.  I for one, have fished for many years and have not personally witnessed any of the wastage but I have seen other minor infractions that I have spoken with individual members about and in certain cases reported and waited for L.E.

There are many reasons why the runs are slowly diminishing but to lay the entire problem on one group is pretty ridiculous and unfounded, carry on.

[HuntandFish]

PlateauNDN-

My mentality is certainly not narrow minded, rather it is focused on the major issue at hand concerning this problem. I understand that there are many Indians that do not practice netting or at least not wasteful practices, unfortunately I do not know those people by name who are doing these wasteful practices or I would have cited them. Again I will restate that the persistant and extensive netting by Indians is a major problem in this state and others, regardless if the Indians are breaking the law or are "fishing" legally. It is a practice that needs to be stopped. I am a contractor and I spend countless dollars on environmental practices that ensure my impact on the construction site does not impact the salmon in the local tributary. And when I am done working for the day I can drive home along the river and see a Indian netting 100's of fish, allot of them native fish! But I am not going to go into the details and implications of how our government bends to suit politics and not logical legislation.


As I stated previously I am not laying the problem on one specific group, I am however laying the blame on Indians for not stopping the incredibly harmfull practice of river netting for the greater good of there so called beloved salmon. Because we all know the government will not step up and change the treaties to exclude this practice because of the political implications, instead the government will try and constrict the rights of the many to offset the actions of the few!

To be clear, there are other issue's that need to be addressed when it comes to saving and restoring salmon numbers. We cannot however patch all the holes in the bucket and simply refuse to address a large hole and expect to never run out of water. This is why people are angry!

Thoughts?

Thanks,
H&F

[Dhoey07]

It would be better if they used a more selective method of netting commercial and native. Yes it is possible.

[HuntandFish]

Teal 101-

This state has stopped nearly all harmful practices as far as law is concerned. A few people not following the law is to small of a pinhole in the bucket to be bringing into a debate like this in my own opinion. Large buffers along creeks are required for logging both private and public. Residential and commercial land development is doing more good then harm for the fish populations, and roads in general do nothing to the habitat of fish, it is obvious that this study is simply targeting the logging industry, I would assume anyway. Please be very wary of studies you read, just because a scientist or someone that is "educated" put together a study it does not mean it is correct, in fact in allot of cases they are just plain wrong.  It is fairly easy to look up studies to support both sides of any argument, what does that tell you? Just remember everyone has to justify there jobs and a few of them have to justify government grants and money. This society is study crazy.

I agree with you that there are still some things that need to be addressed and should be, but we have to change the mentality in this state/country that we have to regulate ourselves more to compensate for the ignorance and self entitlement of others!

And yes the Elwha dam is just another example of this state's unwillingness to stand up to indians and do what is right.

This is just my two cents!
H&F

[Special T]

I'm sure HF will attest to this, but here on the west side thereis a runoff storm drain fee/tax each year. It is for "Manageing runoff issues"  I know every new housing developemnt has water retention ponds with cattails to hold and treat runoff.  Many of these so called runn off studies are must not take this into account. I also am some what suspect of what some counties are using this fund for... For the ammount of $$$ they come up with they should be addding retention ponds like crazy negating existing roads and problems. 

[teal101]

Teal 101-

This state has stopped nearly all harmful practices as far as law is concerned. A few people not following the law is to small of a pinhole in the bucket to be bringing into a debate like this in my own opinion. Large buffers along creeks are required for logging both private and public. Residential and commercial land development is doing more good then harm for the fish populations, and roads in general do nothing to the habitat of fish, it is obvious that this study is simply targeting the logging industry, I would assume anyway. Please be very wary of studies you read, just because a scientist or someone that is "educated" put together a study it does not mean it is correct, in fact in allot of cases they are just plain wrong.  It is fairly easy to look up studies to support both sides of any argument, what does that tell you? Just remember everyone has to justify there jobs and a few of them have to justify government grants and money. This society is study crazy.

I agree with you that there are still some things that need to be addressed and should be, but we have to change the mentality in this state/country that we have to regulate ourselves more to compensate for the ignorance and self entitlement of others!

And yes the Elwha dam is just another example of this state's unwillingness to stand up to indians and do what is right.

This is just my two cents!
H&F

Land development is doing more good than harm?  How in any way shape or form is changing natural habitat better than leaving natural habitat?  That is nearly the same argument that got the hatcheries implemented.  The U.S. thought they could scientifically control and produce the fish better than millions of years of evolution in nature could.  It's asinine.  Just because a development is required to abide by a setback and implement retaining ponds to attempt counteracting their input does not mean that it is helping.  It is merely a bandaid to the issue caused by the development.  If you think roads do nothing you're out of your mind.  You have noise pollution, air pollution, ground pollution, trash, sediment kicked up, and a compact channel for runoff.  We've proven over and over again we can not manage the fish better than nature yet still try to do it.  There are a lot of things the state needs to fix with salmon management, hatcheries being the big black eye in the program right now.

[PlateauNDN]

Teal 101-

This state has stopped nearly all harmful practices as far as law is concerned. A few people not following the law is to small of a pinhole in the bucket to be bringing into a debate like this in my own opinion. Really, so the small pin hole of Tribal Fishermen abusing their rights is ridiculously big and their to blame?  Okay sounds reasonable Tribal Fishermen are the entire reason. Large buffers along creeks are required for logging both private and public. Residential and commercial land development is doing more good then harm for the fish populations, and roads in general do nothing to the habitat of fish, it is obvious that this study is simply targeting the logging industry, I would assume anyway. Wow, residential and commercial land development is better for the fish, ok, if you say so. Please be very wary of studies you read, just because a scientist or someone that is "educated" put together a study it does not mean it is correct, in fact in allot of cases they are just plain wrong.  It is fairly easy to look up studies to support both sides of any argument, what does that tell you? Just remember everyone has to justify there jobs and a few of them have to justify government grants and money. This society is study crazy. We can agree on this one.

I agree with you that there are still some things that need to be addressed and should be, but we have to change the mentality in this state/country that we have to regulate ourselves more to compensate for the ignorance and self entitlement of others!

And yes the Elwha dam is just another example of this state's unwillingness to stand up to indians and do what is right. So in your opinion what is right?  Leaving the dams in place or removing them and restoring an ecosystem that was there way before the dams were ever put in place?  I bet you were against the closure of the port idea when it came to town because the "Indian" skeletal remains that numbered well over thousands of full skeletals and partials were not worth the effort and should've just been removed and dumped like trash just like the previous excavations did in the past.  Their families and ancestors were there first for many generations but yet you probably didn't even care to consider that, they were probably just in your way and who cares right?

This is just my two cents!
H&F

Wow is all I can say. 

[JimmyHoffa]

Really, so the small pin hole of Tribal Fishermen abusing their rights is ridiculously big and their to blame?  Okay sounds reasonable Tribal Fishermen are the entire reason.

I wouldn't say that.  But they are using a VERY effective, non-selective harvest method.  When using any highly effective method it only takes a small pin hole of any population to make a huge impact.  Could you imagine how much worse it would be if non-tribal fisherman could use mono gillnets?  The 50% of the catch doesn't even bug me, nor does using gillnets in open water.  I just don't see the netting of river mouths with modern nets as doing anything good.  It wouldn't bother me at all if the indians made nets out of cedar fibers like they did years ago and netted a few times a season for the traditional aspect.