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Author Topic: Most Versatile Hunting Dog  (Read 61918 times)

Offline pens fan

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2013, 12:45:24 AM »
 :yeah:
Once the AKC recognized the Boykins, the first thing you here is there is one in the national dog show.
The AKC wanted to set the breed standards, and would not accept the color being one of two, chocolate or liver. I guess an agreementbwas madevwith the Boykin Spaniel Society over the breed description rights.No mention of character. No mention of ability. Now, there will be two sets of Boykins, those that hunt, and those that are so far removed from hunting that their instincts will collide with their personalities, creating confused dogs. Mean dogs.
 :twocents:

Offline Blackjaw

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #106 on: December 17, 2013, 07:08:53 AM »
Just look at the split between Field Bred English Cockers and English Springers and bench breds if you want to see what breeding strictly for looks versus ability does to a breed. When people ask what kind of dogs I have and I tell them they are cocker's a lot of people don't believe it as they wouldn't fit the 'breed standard'.

Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #107 on: December 17, 2013, 08:17:48 AM »
If people don't think the AKC has ruined a lot of field bred dogs, they are blind.  The AKC sets breed standards based off the "look" they believe the dogs should have.  Nowhere do the standards talk about field ability, or intelligence, run, style, nose, retrieve, etc.   Because of that, dogs that are out of standard are not considered for breeding In the AKC circles.   IT doesn't matter if the dog is the best field dog the breed has ever seen, if it's out of standard, it's automatically considered a reject. Putting form over function has ruined many field dogs.

To put this as politely as possible, you are 100% wrong. AKC does NOT set any standards. The individual breed clubs set the guidelines. The National Brittany Club of America (or whatever it's called) gives explicit direction to the AKC regarding how the Brittany Standard is read or published. If you do not like the standard, you must petition the Brittany Club for change. Your own Breed Club is the only ones to blame for not accepting your field Brits

The AKC is simply a breed registry which does NOTHING but record pedigrees. Folks really need to do their homework when it comes to non-AKC breeds and breeding. There is also a process which is strict to become an AKC breed. Pens Fan might know more about it? His Boykin breed is one of the newest adopted into the AKC Books.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt 1899

Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #108 on: December 17, 2013, 08:25:22 AM »
Also to note, I said this before but it must have been missed. The AKC does NOT do any policing of the breeders. They will do an occasional kennel inspection and review records of folks posting a lot of litters. One is supposed to keep records and addresses of all pup buyers. Can't remember the specifics.

Any who, AKC does not reject dogs. There can be dogs which are out of standard. They simply will not place in the show ring. I doubt you've considered much showing with your field dogs anyways right?  :chuckle: The intent of (not the AKC) most breed clubs is to keep their dogs looking as original as possible. Of course, the Lab people and a few other breeds have done a great job of turning a blind eye to what they've created but, that again is the Breed Club itself. The AKC has nothing to do with the breed club standard.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt 1899

Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #109 on: December 17, 2013, 08:29:17 AM »
No, ability will never be mentioned or, only with dogs whereas ability is paramount to the breed. Like the Chesapeake Bay Retriever... :chuckle:

Again, their job is recording pedigrees, not making breeds. They are set up simply to be a library. The AKC events keep the cash flowing and promote purebred dogs. This is of course a self serving effort overall.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt 1899

Offline jetjockey

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #110 on: December 17, 2013, 08:45:34 AM »
The breed clubs fall under the umbrella of the AKC.  They must obey the rules and guidelines set fourth by the AKC, or the AKC won't recognize them as a breed club.  When a vast majority of the money coming in comes from the show rings, who do you think has the say in voting in the breed clubs?   When the field people get outvoted by the show people, the field ability of the dogs suffers.  Why do you think the Setter and Pointer people could care less about registering with the AKC?  Why do you think the GSP folks split away from the AKC and now have a seperate AF side?  Why do you think many of the field people in the Brittany world want to split from the AKC?  Because the AKC is controlled by the show people, who controll the breeds.  They make their decisions based on the "look" of a dog and not the field ability of a certain breed.  Why?  Because AKC represents all breeds, not just working breeds.  AF represents field breeds only, and there is no standard anywhere in their database.  That's why amongst pointing breeds, American Field is held in a much higher regard than the AKC.  Most pointing dog guys will tell you the AKC is a joke. 

Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #111 on: December 17, 2013, 08:53:49 AM »
The breed clubs fall under the umbrella of the AKC.  They must obey the rules and guidelines set fourth by the AKC, or the AKC won't recognize them as a breed club.  When a vast majority of the money coming in comes from the show rings, who do you think has the say in voting in the breed clubs?   When the field people get outvoted by the show people, the field ability of the dogs suffers.  Why do you think the Setter and Pointer people could care less about registering with the AKC?  Why do you think the GSP folks split away from the AKC and now have a seperate AF side?  Why do you think many of the field people in the Brittany world want to split from the AKC?  Because the AKC is controlled by the show people, who controll the breeds.  They make their decisions based on the "look" of a dog and not the field ability of a certain breed.  Why?  Because AKC represents all breeds, not just working breeds.  AF represents field breeds only, and there is no standard anywhere in their database.  That's why amongst pointing breeds, American Field is held in a much higher regard than the AKC.  Most pointing dog guys will tell you the AKC is a joke.

Have you ever read the AKC "Rules" you speak of? I have. I've also written the Bylawsfor a field trial club. The newest in the US last year. The only rules they have apply to elections, meetings and frequency of meetings and elections. :)

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt 1899

Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #112 on: December 17, 2013, 08:58:41 AM »
That's why amongst pointing breeds, American Field is held in a much higher regard than the AKC.  Most pointing dog guys will tell you the AKC is a joke.

Field breeders have been just as to blame for many health issues over the years. Pointing dogs so far have dodged many genetic bullets. My guess is that won't stay that way for a long time.

Pointing dog people do the least amount of preventative health testing of any single set of animal breeders. I'll dare to include horsemen.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt 1899

Offline jetjockey

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #113 on: December 17, 2013, 09:33:07 AM »
That's because pointing dog trials naturally weed out unhealthy dogs.  Good luck laying down a solid hour with bad hips or a bad heart.   Other trial venues do nothing to test the stamina or physical ability of a dog, and thus unhealthy dogs can actually win.  That's why AF doesn't need to post a "standard" either.  A largely oversized or undersized dog will never be able to compete.

Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #114 on: December 17, 2013, 09:41:08 AM »
That's because pointing dog trials naturally weed out unhealthy dogs.  Good luck laying down a solid hour with bad hips or a bad heart.   Other trial venues do nothing to test the stamina or physical ability of a dog, and thus unhealthy dogs can actually win.  That's why AF doesn't need to post a "standard" either.  A largely oversized or undersized dog will never be able to compete.

from a medical standpoint, bad hips won't show until the dog is probably past his prime. How the dog moves at 10+ years old is a better indicator. How sound is the animal? Elbows, hips, eyes etc.

I'm far more impressed by a dog who wins at a heightened age than one who does it young and never has anymore success. Folks who advertise everything a young dog accomplished then, the dog does nothing. Well, either the dog had a good week/month or, it only had a brief window where it would continue to train and develop.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt 1899

Offline AspenBud

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #115 on: December 17, 2013, 10:00:06 AM »
That's because pointing dog trials naturally weed out unhealthy dogs.  Good luck laying down a solid hour with bad hips or a bad heart.   Other trial venues do nothing to test the stamina or physical ability of a dog, and thus unhealthy dogs can actually win.  That's why AF doesn't need to post a "standard" either.  A largely oversized or undersized dog will never be able to compete.

Just to add to what you are saying. For a dog to win at Ames, just one example, it effectively has to run at the same level at the end of its four hour brace as it did at the start of it. Dogs with bad hips and bad hearts can't do that.

Now if you want to talk about cancer, that's a different story. Some field bred Pointer breedings don't fair well. Then again, you have dogs like Hard Driving Bev here...

http://americanfield.villagesoup.com/p/hard-driving-bev-1999-2013/1089062?source=WeeklyHeadlines


Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #116 on: December 17, 2013, 10:10:53 AM »
for the sake of argument, dogs with poor hip scores can go their entire lives and not be diagnosed with dysplasia. OFFA scores do not mean the dog is going down or can't run. Furthest from the truth. The score simply is a measurement of the orientation of the socket to the joint.

A dog with a poor score can easily run for hours without showing any sign of dysplasia. It could run it's whole life. Where that comes into play, is when it is never tested, gets bred a whole bunch and it's offspring get bred and nobody is doing it because, "It ran fine for hours"....

That is where many pointer breeders are off. Lab breeders felt the same way about CNM and PRA. My dog never shown signs of it and he's an FC. Breed away. Then, you start getting a few blind puppies showing up, nervous system issues etc. GSP's are no different or, many pointing breeds for that matter.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt 1899

Offline AspenBud

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #117 on: December 17, 2013, 10:42:34 AM »
for the sake of argument, dogs with poor hip scores can go their entire lives and not be diagnosed with dysplasia. OFFA scores do not mean the dog is going down or can't run. Furthest from the truth. The score simply is a measurement of the orientation of the socket to the joint.

A dog with a poor score can easily run for hours without showing any sign of dysplasia. It could run it's whole life. Where that comes into play, is when it is never tested, gets bred a whole bunch and it's offspring get bred and nobody is doing it because, "It ran fine for hours"....

That is where many pointer breeders are off. Lab breeders felt the same way about CNM and PRA. My dog never shown signs of it and he's an FC. Breed away. Then, you start getting a few blind puppies showing up, nervous system issues etc. GSP's are no different or, many pointing breeds for that matter.

I think the problem with that argument is history. In the last 50 years it's not hard to see who has produced more dogs with horrifically dysplastic hips. Prancing around a show ring doesn't really show a lot of the flaws in a dog's gait nor does it demonstrate just how well a dog can take the day in, day out, ground pounding that a trial dog does.

Look, I'm not disagreeing with your underlying argument here. But a pointing dog with bad hips is going to have a hard time winning at the highest levels and is going to have a hard time with the physical conditioning that goes on.

Bad hips lead to bad gait which directly affects a dog's endurance...and if pointing dog trials are about anything over and above finding and pointing birds, it is endurance.

Where the danger appears is with backyard breeders. Guys breeding winning trial dogs have an eye for what they want. They aren't just slamming two champions together randomly. On that level I think you are correct. The farther removed you get from competition the more you can run into problem breedings. Some people like to stay away from up close trial dog breedings because they think they'll avoid a dog that runs over to the next county, in some cases that's fair, but it also raises the odds of getting a genetic frankenstein if a person doesn't know who and what they are dealing with.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 10:48:23 AM by AspenBud »

Offline pens fan

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #118 on: December 17, 2013, 10:46:01 AM »
I was and still am against the Boykins being in the AKC registry. This opened the door for folks to put the dogs in the show ring instead of the field. People will exploit the looks of the dog for thier own benifit.
This is one reason i try and sell my pups only to hunters. Too many people love the looks of Boykins and want one for that purpose only. I often talk people out of it, unless i have a pup that just doesnt seem to have "it".
I have relatives who show dogs, and they even say some of the breeds no longer resemble what they used to look like.
As for pointers, i know little about them. But i have seen some GSP's at dog show in Portland, and i dont think any of them would know a bird if it stood on its nose. They seemed distraught. Not what i see in the fields.

Offline Spuddieselwwu

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Re: Most Versatile Hunting Dog
« Reply #119 on: December 17, 2013, 11:15:48 AM »
Wirehairs do it all.they are fur and feather dogs, tracking, ect.it would take a special lab to hang with them in the upland area. But for water some wirehairs love it some don't

And it'd take a special wirehair to consistently hang with a lab while chasing ducks and geese.  I think it's all about preference.  Do you side more towards upland or waterfowl? If you have more of an affinity towards upland, then I think Wirehair takes it.  Alternatively, if you lean more towards ducks/geese, a lab is the best bet for you.

 


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