Hoof Rot Town hall in Cowlitz Co.

[JLS]

See responses in green.

Finally get a chance to reply to JLS

 It was nice to meet some of you guys last night. I was way impressed with the attendance.
1 thing that I have been thinking about. Which if I can find the info in the Longview daily news. Is that Jonker said in 2013 they finally decided it was ok to eat elk with hoof rot. But it seems to me like they had an article in the paper in 2012 that said they wouldnt recomend it not knowing the cause. Then a month later said its ok to eat. If I'm right its contradictory to their statement last night.

I think I have 2 sets of antlers in my shop that came from bulls with hoof rot. They are both very porous and deformed. Have seen several others.

This could be a side effect of hoof rot, or also could very well be a symptom of calcium/phosophorus ratios along with levels of protein in feed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22071000
Most if not all of  the elk that I have seen with deformed,Porus,and unshed horns of thetype I'm talking about had hoof rot. So I think there is a connection.

They also said they tagged an elk that had hoof rot and tracked it for 3 years. But didnt comment on any changes to the affecteed hoof or hoofs and condition of the elk during that time. I would be curious to hear about that.

It also seems to me like they couldnt see the forest through the trees when it comes to herbicides.Maybe its just my perception. But they were keying on the bacteria as being the cause of the hoof rot. It was pointed out by the audience from MSDS sheets that the herbicides cause several of the symptoms these animals have. Jonker also stated that our elk are low in copper and selenium. My concern would be, is the herbicide killing the browse that contains those minerals.

Trace minerals are present in the soil, and are present in plants at levels that reflect relative levels in the soil.  If the elk were that nutritionally stressed across the board, they wouldn't be at the population levels they are at.  Elk are going to go SOMEWHERE to get the food they need, and if it's not available they die.

WDFW are the ones that said they are low in copper and selenium. Just because they are low in a mineral doesnt mean they are going to die!. But it could mean their immune system is compromised. So yes, I think they could be nutritionally compromized and still be at the population levels they are at. But,since you mention it. Another widely talked about point at the meeting was that people havent seen near the number of elk in the past year that they previously have. The groups of people I have been around have witnessed the same thing. As far as going to where the food they need is. Maybe they will go there if they have access to it. Or maybe they will browse on less than ideal plants because that is what is left. So they are getting some nutrition. But maybe not enough or the right kinds.Maybe its just been enough to keep them alive. Or maybe its starting to really take a toll and they are dying off from the long term effects.

I fully understand about low trace minerals leading to a compromised immune system.  My point was that the herbicides were not likely to change the trace mineral content in the feeds.  Certainly the herbicides can and do affect the amount of available forages, the types of forages (which can in turn have some side affect consequences during different times of the year by altering timing of available protein), etc.  But, as I said earlier, elk aren't just going to keep nibbling at dirt in the same clear cut if there is not available food.  They'll either 1) die of starvation or 2) go somewhere else where they can find food.

Thus depriving them of the nutrients they need to fight off infections from the bacteria? If they arent getting the nutrients they need to stay healthy they are being stressed. We all know that stress causes health problems. Add in the stress of being hunted from Sept. to Feb. and their immune system has to be compromised. Kind of bouncing around here, but to me the herbicides seem to be a double whammy for the elk.(and deer) From ingestion of the herbicide. and possibly killing the exact browse they need for a healthy diet.

Playing devil's advocate here, why is this then localized to SW Washington and is not being seen in Oregon?  If the herbicides are the root cause then it would be present in all of the coastal range of Oregon also, right?  Also, your perception of stress on an immune system for elk is taken from a human perspective.  Being hunted every day by something is natural for elk.

The Washington-Oregon comaprison was also addressed. I believe they said that Oregon hasnt been using the same herbicides, and not for as long a duration. But could be mistaken on that. Also, being hunted by an occasional,bear,cougar,or coyote, and I highly doubt on a daily basis. At least I havent seen it in 45 years of observing them. Is a lot different than being hunted by humans from daylight or before, till after dark. Everyday for a minimum of 5 months. Chased for miles on end from one field, clearcut, or timber patch to another till their tongues are hanging out and sweat is rolling off them all day long. With no real chance of rest. Do you really think thats a stress they are used to. I highly doubt it. And there is no way its natural. 

If they have food, water, and are not in the process of being eaten then they aren't going to be "stressed" per se like humans would.  I would be very careful using the length of hunting season in this argument.  Not only is it irrelevant, but it will come back to bite you down the road when used by anti hunters.. 
See my previous comments about the stress. Tie in the fatigue from being hunted for as long as they are and the way they are. Its gotta take its toll. So it is extremely relevent. As far as the antis go. Do you really not believe they already have all this info. Talking about it here isnt going to change that. The length of the season was another hot topic at the meeting,and I hear it discussed a lot within the hunting community. So I guess the hunters as well as the antis may have a concern about that!

I guess if that's a local concern then so be it.  There are plenty of places in the US that elk are hunted for six months out of the year in order to control populations.  Are there enough elk to justify the hunt?  Ask yourself that.  If hunting is being used as the management tool to address populations that are over objective, then fine.  I for one will never apologize about hunting as a management tool, regardless of how long the season is.  If populations justify it, have at it.  Elk are a prey animal, it's how the evolved and what they live with.

It seems kind of ironic to me to hear this argument from hunters that you are over stressing them by hunting them for too long of a period.  If that was truly the case, the population would be plummeting due to extremely low calving rates as the cows would be aborting because of the stress, and would have a low conception rate because they would not be carrying adequate body at stores. 

I will be the first to admit that I don't have any first hand experience in that area.  But, elk are elk.  I guess if you want to get to the nitty gritty on some of this stuff you should be asking about long term trends in calving rates, over winter survival of calves, and total harvest numbers.  How have population densities changed across the units?  Have the elk changed their traditional use patterns?  What kind of body condition are the elk in that don't have hoof rot?
Herbicides would definitely reduce available feed sources.  Elk are primarily grazers, but will key in on browse species during certain times of the year.  Browse species are often sources of high quality protein.[/color
] And if that high quality protien isnt around,what happens. I guess I use the term browse rather loosely. I mean any of their natural foods in general.

One more thing I thought was very significant was that thye said that eradication of the affected animals hasnt been ruled out! And they dont know what process they would use if it comes to that.

Just to comment on my own comments. Could this be a subtle hint about the introduction of wolves? I would just about gaurantee you that even though they didnt mention it, that they havent been thinking about that option!

Barnes told a few of us last night that he was told this was what they plan to do. But WDFW would not announce it until after permit apps. are in!  Should be a real eye opener on how our WDFW works if this comes to fruition.

Would like to write more. But gotta get to work.

[JLS]

Just to follow up, I don't want to leave the impression that I don't think the herbicides are a bad thing.  They are.  Bobcat mentioned forest grouse earlier.  The loss of forbes and decidous trees is a big loss for grouse.  It serves as nesting and ground cover, and also as a food source. 

I would love to see us go back to burning the clearcuts and letting them regenerate in a more natural manner.  What a boon that would be for the wildlife.  I'm just a little skeptical that it has anything to do with the hoof rot issue. 

It would be very interesting to see some GIS mapping done of where the hoof rot is being found relative to the areas that are being sprayed with herbicides for commercial timber operations.  Then, plot another overlay of what are the prevalant types/brands of herbicides being used up the entire coast of Oregon and Washington.

Whatever the issue is, I wish you guys the best of luck in finding a solution.

[HntnFsh]

JLS,
Its interesting you mention calving rates etc. I asked about that at the meeting. Their findings were a lot different than mine. I wish I took better notes. But I believe that they said of the 9 viable cows they checked. 5 had fetuses. That doesnt sound too bad. Dont know what the ratio should be though.

I told them of the 10 or 12 mature cows that I have seen harvested during the Dec.- Jan. late cow hunts in the last couple years. I have seen 1 fetus. Talking to my brother in law and after thinking about it. That just seems like an extremely low rate. I have to wonder a few things. Is there a reason they are not fertile? Are they too weak or hoofs so bad that they cant support a bull. Are the  bulls not able to breed because of the same reasons? I have no idea. But sure would like to know.

It would be interesting to find out what the chances are of a cow that is pregnant in that time frame carrying to full term and delivering a healthy calf. Which adds another question. If that calf is born healthy is the cow able to supply it with a quality and quantity of milk for the length of time needed.

Man.1 question leads to another doesnt it.

[JLS]

Sure does, doesn't it?

What does the age structure of the harvest look like?  That can be very telling also.

[HntnFsh]

hntnfsh, not sure if you may have the answer to this, but after reading your post about eradication.... Here is my question; For some to suggest eradication, they must know how long the bacteria remains in the soils? And is this bacteria naturally occurring?

Not sure how eradication of the infected carriers is a solution to something that may be omnipresent...

Sorry Iceman, forgot to respond to this. There was a veterinarian in the crowd that talked about the way WDFW took samples and said it was flawed. They were killing the animals first. Then getting the samples. She said the bacteria dies with the host. I'm not so sure about that. But I'm not educated in that area either. If it is Treponeme bacteria. They said its the same bacteria that sheep and cows get and came over in the 90s. They didnt say where it came from. If it is transmitted directly between animals or if it is sloughed off of 1 animal into the ground and picked up by another animal with an open wound. They did say that they thnk that the wet environment wouldnt let their wounds heal in a timely manner. Making them more susceptable.

[HntnFsh]

Sure does, doesn't it?

What does the age structure of the harvest look like?  That can be very telling also.

Of the elk I saw. I thought a couple were too young to be of calving age. So didnt include them in my #s. I would imagine that a couple of the cows could have been too old to calf. But dont really know at what age they quit being able to do that. Just depends on health I imagine.

[Axle]

If they decide to eradicate the wild ungulates in certain areas and then over time - bring the back, the problem won't be fixed unless they can keep them off the farms that are infected. I have friends that have sheep and goats that have the hoof rot and they tell me the disease lives in the soil long after the animals are off the property. It spreads to other animals through the soil. I've also eaten the infected sheep and look at me - I'm still normal and my feet don't smell 

Removing the infected wild ungulates may or may not be a good idea. I currently have no opinion on it except to end the suffering of highly infected animals. What will happen once the elk numbers come back is they will go back to the farms where they feel protected. We have too many predators up in the hills where the elk normally would roam. This has driven them into residential areas where the disease exists and is spread by animals being bought and sold and traded.

Also, one reason OR doesn't show this problem is because it is dryer there. I've lived there and even western OR is much dryer that western WA. This is just my opinion but this disease thrives in wet soil. You won't see infected ungulates on the dry side either. The farmland ungulates show great improvement on dry summers but once the rain returns in the fall, they are limping again.

I suspect this will be one of the most difficult problems to fix.

[TheHunt]

Good meeting for sure. I will try to get to the Vancouver meeting next month.I was a bit surprised to see director Anderson there.

He is being very visible since the signature to remove the top folks of WDFW

[xd2005]

Also, one reason OR doesn't show this problem is because it is dryer there. I've lived there and even western OR is much dryer that western WA. This is just my opinion but this disease thrives in wet soil. You won't see infected ungulates on the dry side either. The farmland ungulates show great improvement on dry summers but once the rain returns in the fall, they are limping again.

That's going to be an uphill battle convincing me the coastal range of Oregon is drier than SW WA...

[Bob33]

Also, one reason OR doesn't show this problem is because it is dryer there. I've lived there and even western OR is much dryer that western WA. This is just my opinion but this disease thrives in wet soil. You won't see infected ungulates on the dry side either. The farmland ungulates show great improvement on dry summers but once the rain returns in the fall, they are limping again.

That's going to be an uphill battle convincing me the coastal range of Oregon is drier than SW WA...

Oregon is wetter. Seaside gets 75 inches of rain per year. Tilamook gets 90.

[bobcat]

Oregon is wetter than Washington?  :shock:


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[Forks]

Good meeting for sure. I will try to get to the Vancouver meeting next month.I was a bit surprised to see director Anderson there.

Just curious why you're surprised?

[steen]

It was nice to meet some of you guys last night. I was way impressed with the attendance.
1 thing that I have been thinking about. Which if I can find the info in the Longview daily news. Is that Jonker said in 2013 they finally decided it was ok to eat elk with hoof rot. But it seems to me like they had an article in the paper in 2012 that said they wouldnt recomend it not knowing the cause. Then a month later said its ok to eat. If I'm right its contradictory to their statement last night.

I think I have 2 sets of antlers in my shop that came from bulls with hoof rot. They are both very porous and deformed. Have seen several others.

They also said they tagged an elk that had hoof rot and tracked it for 3 years. But didnt comment on any changes to the affecteed hoof or hoofs and condition of the elk during that time. I would be curious to hear about that.

It also seems to me like they couldnt see the forest through the trees when it comes to herbicides.Maybe its just my perception. But they were keying on the bacteria as being the cause of the hoof rot. It was pointed out by the audience from MSDS sheets that the herbicides cause several of the symptoms these animals have. Jonker also stated that our elk are low in copper and selenium. My concern would be, is the herbicide killing the browse that contains those minerals. Thus depriving them of the nutrients they need to fight off infections from the bacteria? If they arent getting the nutrients they need to stay healthy they are being stressed. We all know that stress causes health problems. Add in the stress of being hunted from Sept. to Feb. and their immune system has to be compromised. Kind of bouncing around here, but to me the herbicides seem to be a double whammy for the elk.(and deer) From ingestion of the herbicide. and possibly killing the exact browse they need for a healthy diet.


One more thing I thought was very significant was that thye said that eradication of the affected animals hasnt been ruled out! And they dont know what process they would use if it comes to that.

Barnes told a few of us last night that he was told this was what they plan to do. But WDFW would not announce it until after permit apps. are in!  Should be a real eye opener on how our WDFW works if this comes to fruition.

Would like to write more. But gotta get to work.

I'm responding to the part about selenium.  Western WA doesn't have near as much of that mineral in the soil here.  When we buy our salt blocks we buy the mineral ones because of the selenium. Our farm animals need it especially if we are feeding local hay.  Eastern WA has a better stock of the mineral.

[ELKBURGER]

Good meeting for sure. I will try to get to the Vancouver meeting next month.I was a bit surprised to see director Anderson there.

Just curious why you're surprised?

A) Its a long way to drive for a 2 hour meeting.
            B) He would not have any technical or personal input into the topic. (Which he did'nt)
            C) Figured he would delegate his minions to appease the masses. (Which he did)
            D) Figured he would not want to attend an open forum knowing his disapproval rating is rising. (He showed, I was surprised)

          I'm sure everybody thinks his attendance should have been mandatory. The hoof rot issue is a big one that isnt going away anytime soon, and I am glad he was there to get a feel for the issues from the hunters. I believe he has not been involved in much of the issue since he's director of the whole department statewide. Hopefully he will see the importance of this issue and re prioritize some resources and efforts. It appeared the state had no idea of what herbacides have been used or their long term impacts. There have been no studies on those products. He did, however, say that the department will look into the herbacide theory that the majority of the attendance thought was related.
         Heres to hopin'

[Humptulips]

If they decide to eradicate the wild ungulates in certain areas and then over time - bring the back, the problem won't be fixed unless they can keep them off the farms that are infected. I have friends that have sheep and goats that have the hoof rot and they tell me the disease lives in the soil long after the animals are off the property. It spreads to other animals through the soil. I've also eaten the infected sheep and look at me - I'm still normal and my feet don't smell 

Removing the infected wild ungulates may or may not be a good idea. I currently have no opinion on it except to end the suffering of highly infected animals. What will happen once the elk numbers come back is they will go back to the farms where they feel protected. We have too many predators up in the hills where the elk normally would roam. This has driven them into residential areas where the disease exists and is spread by animals being bought and sold and traded.

Also, one reason OR doesn't show this problem is because it is dryer there. I've lived there and even western OR is much dryer that western WA. This is just my opinion but this disease thrives in wet soil. You won't see infected ungulates on the dry side either. The farmland ungulates show great improvement on dry summers but once the rain returns in the fall, they are limping again.

I suspect this will be one of the most difficult problems to fix.

I think you have hit on the core problem and fully agree with your assesment. It may even be impossible to cure.