Conflict Goat?

[520backyard]

I just had a conversation with the lead biologist for the state in the ONP goat removal program. The goats in the USFS area outside the park are under state control and are also being removed because they are not native to the area. I asked why more tags have not been available to hunters in this area in the past to help reduce the goat population and he stated it was because hunters complained that there was not enough goats in the area and that any more tags and hunters would be stacked up on top of each other. I cited the study that stated that 111 mtn goats were killed by hunters from 1981 to 1989 which averaged 12.3 goats harvested per year in the area outside the park(I am assuming it is the same area given the goat population density map in the removal plan). He didn't say much to that. 

[Crunchy]

I think the biologist took the blue pill instead of the red one.  If you followed the Matrix you will understand.

[520backyard]

I think the biologist took the blue pill instead of the red one.  If you followed the Matrix you will understand.

Yeah roger that.

[jackelope]

I’m pretty sure if you did some digging around on this very forum on this very board, you’ll find multiple threads from hunters who have had the conflict tags and who documented their hunts here. None of them said it was easy to kill a goat in there.

[520backyard]

I’m pretty sure if you did some digging around on this very forum on this very board, you’ll find multiple threads from hunters who have had the conflict tags and who documented their hunts here. None of them said it was easy to kill a goat in there.

I didn't know easy was on the table when it came to goat hunting. If I ever get drawn again I expect it to be harder than hell just like last time and I wouldn't have it any other way it was the best hunt ever.

[jackelope]

I’m pretty sure if you did some digging around on this very forum on this very board, you’ll find multiple threads from hunters who have had the conflict tags and who documented their hunts here. None of them said it was easy to kill a goat in there.

I didn't know easy was on the table when it came to goat hunting. If I ever get drawn again I expect it to be harder than hell just like last time and I wouldn't have it any other way it was the best hunt ever.

Maybe easy wasn't exactly the right word to use, but I've read lots of opinions on this project and it seems like a lot of the people pushing for letting hunters in to shoot them act like they're just going to hike up the Mt Ellinor trail and have to fend off the goats with a stick, shoot one and walk back down. Judging by the threads I've read on here shared by the folks who have actually hunted them, it's difficult country to access, they're hard to find and there are all sorts of other issues to deal with like hikers and weather and whatever else. Just trying to clarify that this would not be like shooting ducks on a pond.
 

[520backyard]

I’m pretty sure if you did some digging around on this very forum on this very board, you’ll find multiple threads from hunters who have had the conflict tags and who documented their hunts here. None of them said it was easy to kill a goat in there.

I didn't know easy was on the table when it came to goat hunting. If I ever get drawn again I expect it to be harder than hell just like last time and I wouldn't have it any other way it was the best hunt ever.

Maybe easy wasn't exactly the right word to use, but I've read lots of opinions on this project and it seems like a lot of the people pushing for letting hunters in to shoot them act like they're just going to hike up the Mt Ellinor trail and have to fend off the goats with a stick, shoot one and walk back down. Judging by the threads I've read on here shared by the folks who have actually hunted them, it's difficult country to access, they're hard to find and there are all sorts of other issues to deal with like hikers and weather and whatever else. Just trying to clarify that this would not be like shooting ducks on a pond.

It's just curious to me that the reason given by the WDFW biologist when I asked why hasn't WDFW increased tags numbers in that area to reduce their numbers he gave a reason that "hunters had complained about not enough goats and that increased tags would have hunters hunting on top of each other". Yet the goat density map from the goat management plan on page 43 shows goat densities in the area to be medium to medium high with 7-15 and 16-50 goats within that area respectively and it is not exactly a small area. Knowing they want the goats out of there and yet they offer a 10 day tag season in there, while every other goat unit in the state gets from a month and a half to two and a half months. That is completely illogical given the situation and it has been for at least 2 decades in this particular goat area. Lets hope that plan B is selected and there are no rotting goat carcasses.

[X-Force]

Even though the goat removal is away from the hunt areas I wonder how the Park Goat removal this summer will effect the hunt.

The conflict goat hunts are part of the goat removal plan area.

They are part of the goat removal plan but the removal/relocation program where the ONP will be actively trapping, darting or netting goats this summer is outside of the hunt unit.

[jackelope]

I’m pretty sure if you did some digging around on this very forum on this very board, you’ll find multiple threads from hunters who have had the conflict tags and who documented their hunts here. None of them said it was easy to kill a goat in there.

I didn't know easy was on the table when it came to goat hunting. If I ever get drawn again I expect it to be harder than hell just like last time and I wouldn't have it any other way it was the best hunt ever.

Maybe easy wasn't exactly the right word to use, but I've read lots of opinions on this project and it seems like a lot of the people pushing for letting hunters in to shoot them act like they're just going to hike up the Mt Ellinor trail and have to fend off the goats with a stick, shoot one and walk back down. Judging by the threads I've read on here shared by the folks who have actually hunted them, it's difficult country to access, they're hard to find and there are all sorts of other issues to deal with like hikers and weather and whatever else. Just trying to clarify that this would not be like shooting ducks on a pond.

It's just curious to me that the reason given by the WDFW biologist when I asked why hasn't WDFW increased tags numbers in that area to reduce their numbers he gave a reason that "hunters had complained about not enough goats and that increased tags would have hunters hunting on top of each other". Yet the goat density map from the goat management plan on page 43 shows goat densities in the area to be medium to medium high with 7-15 and 16-50 goats within that area respectively and it is not exactly a small area. Knowing they want the goats out of there and yet they offer a 10 day tag season in there, while every other goat unit in the state gets from a month and a half to two and a half months. That is completely illogical given the situation and it has been for at least 2 decades in this particular goat area. Lets hope that plan B is selected and there are no rotting goat carcasses.

Yeah I totally get where you're coming from. I just read about 3 people on here who had those permits. 1 killed a goat on the 5th day. The other 2 ate their tags. I don't know how they'd capture all the goats. If the end goal is zero goats alive, then some are going to have to be culled. It's not like you're going to capture some farm goats. There will be cliffs involved, you won't be able to net/dart them because of where they are, you can spook them from one place to another and try again I guess but.... I just don't see all of the goats being captured.
Given the history of this effort the past 30 or so years of trying to get them moved, honestly I'll be surprised if it actually happens in the first place.
 
 

[Katmai Guy]

Hopefully the helicopters, darting and netting runs the goats into the hunt areas.  Will increase opportunity for tag holders.

[jackelope]

Hopefully the helicopters, darting and netting runs the goats into the hunt areas.  Will increase opportunity for tag holders.

You've been there with boots on the ground, right? They're hard to find or not?

[Katmai Guy]

They are easy to find with the helicopters the Bios use but not so much with boots.  Terrain/access was the limiting factor to get to where I was told the majority of the bigger billys were,(West side of Mt Pershing) After the hunt, talking with the head bio and his assistant, they admitted they hadn't put boots on the ground to access accessibiltity.  After trying to get to the goats on Pershing, I decided to get to  elevation using the Mt Ellinor trail and then travel the ridge from there to hunt but after getting up there, found out you cant get anywhere without mt climbing gear so you're stuck sitting in a tent waiting for a goat to walk by.  I now know how to get where I saw some BIG billies and will share once I find out if I've drawn or not.  My hunt was great, success not so much but that isn't the whole experience.  I believe the Olympics are way tougher to navigate to where you want to be than the cascades.

[CaNINE]

They are easy to find with the helicopters the Bios use but not so much with boots.  Terrain/access was the limiting factor to get to where I was told the majority of the bigger billys were,(West side of Mt Pershing) After the hunt, talking with the head bio and his assistant, they admitted they hadn't put boots on the ground to access accessibiltity.  After trying to get to the goats on Pershing, I decided to get to  elevation using the Mt Ellinor trail and then travel the ridge from there to hunt but after getting up there, found out you cant get anywhere without mt climbing gear so you're stuck sitting in a tent waiting for a goat to walk by.  I now know how to get where I saw some BIG billies and will share once I find out if I've drawn or not.  My hunt was great, success not so much but that isn't the whole experience.  I believe the Olympics are way tougher to navigate to where you want to be than the cascades.

 

There are some good Billy's up there but most of the tag holders haven't been able to make it half way up the ridge, let alone to the summit block where the big boys hang out.  It's rough, broken and heavily vegitated climbing suck fest clinging to devil's club and vine maple.  Last year I helped a Montana youth hunter who drew the tag...he took a nice goat.  Year before we took a nice Billy up there.  The state won't increase hunter opportunity because they understand the difficulty of the hunt and that increased tags won't result in reduced populations.

[520backyard]

Here is a fun fact. 15% of the goats to be eliminated under the goat plan are goats under the control of WDFW. A earlier goat report clearly states that only 10% of those goats outside the park migrate back and forth. I asked the biologist why those goats were slated for removal and he stated the party line of NPS "because they are not native". So about 109 goats will be removed either by relocation or by lethal removal. That's about 5 years worth of goat tags given a 8% normal reproductive rate.

[jackelope]

I just saw a post on Facebook from Bushcraft saying that there are 26 days left to change the lethal removal part of the plan....so there's an opportunity to change.