collapse

Advertisement


Author Topic: Diesel gurus, need advice  (Read 2072 times)

Offline Skillet

  • Business Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 4218
  • Location: Sitka / Everett
Diesel gurus, need advice
« on: July 19, 2019, 06:36:55 AM »
Hi fellas,

Up here fishing in AK and have an issue that I need to sort out ASAP, going the board can get me educated here a bit before I start talking to the shop here in Sitka.

My main engine is a Sisu inline 6 turbo diesel, 6.6 liter, Bosch P7100 injection pump with pencil injectors.  It just started missing and  making a lot of oil.  Diesel in the crankcase, to the tune of gaining about a gallon an hour at reduced running speed.

 I was in Lituya Bay when it started (after taking a load of fuel at Elfin Cove),  and have been running the boat back to Sitka since 10 am yesterday. I'm a hour out of town now.  Every three hours, I'll shut down and take out 5 gallons, put two gallons of fresh oil back in to get it back to the low notch on the dip stick.

At idle, I'm dropping two cylinders (#3 and #6, checked by cracking the feed lines at the injectors), and running it feels like I'm only down one. 

I question the fuel I got, and switched over to a known clean tank of fuel.  Bad injectors?  I'm a little smoky, but not really heavy. Just a blue haze.  P Pump seal gone, dumping fuel into the crankcase?  Worse?

Thanks in advance-

Chris


@woodchuck
@jackelope
@buckmark
@mudman
@southpole
@anybody else who has insight
KABOOM Count - 1

"The ocean is calling, and I must go."

Offline Dysfunctional Vet

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Tracker
  • **
  • Join Date: Feb 2018
  • Posts: 55
  • Location: Ruston
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2019, 07:04:02 AM »
Possibly failed injector sleeves.
The VA
   Giving veterans a second chance to die for their country since 1930.

Offline BrandonWatts

  • Non-Hunting Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Scout
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2008
  • Posts: 345
  • Location: lost in the woods
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2019, 07:12:51 AM »
Sounds like tips on the injectors are toast. Those p7100 are pretty hard to kill. Wouldnít run it much longer until you get them replaced. You are essentially washing the cylinder with diesel and not getting any oil on 3 and 6. Run it too long and you will be doing pistons and liners too.

Offline Skillet

  • Business Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 4218
  • Location: Sitka / Everett
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2019, 07:27:21 AM »
Thanks guys.  Necessity dictated I get back to Sitka to get these fish off and get to a place that had some level of service, so that meant a 20 hour run on a sick engine.  No AAA out here, you bootstrap yourself out of anything you get yourself into.

Sounds like the first place to start is the injectors. I'll get a set flying my way asap and let you all know how it works. Really hoping the pump is still kosher, and didn't torch any cylinder sleeves, pistons or bearings.

Might take a quick nap first.  :chuckle:

KABOOM Count - 1

"The ocean is calling, and I must go."

Offline Mudman

  • Non-Hunting Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Old Salt
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Posts: 5320
  • Location: Wetside rock garden.
  • Get R Done.
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2019, 08:09:48 AM »
 :yeah:  I hope having to run it back didn't damage other parts.  I do wonder why 2 at same time?  Maybe 1 was going and ya didn't notice?  Its a wear part and Im sure you run great filtration so good luck, I think it will be ok with new inj. 
MAGA!  Again..

Offline dyhardhuntr

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Tracker
  • **
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 74
  • Location: Kelso,WA.
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2019, 09:29:42 AM »
If I was too guess Iíd say an issue with those 2 injectors. Could be they are dribbling or it lost a tip(hope not). I would pull an injector and see if you can see a crack or missing tip. If not, and itís available, have them tested. Usually if itís an injector sleeve itís fuel in the cooling system. Although Iím not familiar with the engine manufacturer. Iíve worked on countless Cummins,cat, Detroit and such engines. Also think outside the norm. If there is anywhere that oil and fuel are in the same vicinity, give it a look see. Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Knocker of rocks

  • Non-Hunting Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Old Salt
  • ******
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 7292
  • Location: the Holocene, man
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2019, 09:42:51 AM »
If there is anywhere that oil and fuel are in the same vicinity, give it a look see.

There were a number a farm tractors where pressurized diesel could enter the crankcase at the injector pump engine connection

Online Woodchuck

  • GO TEAM!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 11022
  • Location: Walla Walla
  • HuntWA Woodblock
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2019, 09:52:19 AM »
You didn't just have this thing "tuned" did you?
Antlered rabbit tastes like chicken


Inuendo, wasn't he an Italian proctoligist?

Offline Boss .300 winmag

  • Best Biggie Blogger
  • Washington For Wildlife
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • Explorer
  • ******
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 11357
  • Location: Skagit Valley
  • DAN-O CAN'T TAKE BIGGIE PICS
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2019, 09:54:41 AM »
🤔
"Just because I like granola, and I have stretched my arms around a few trees, doesn't mean I'm a tree hugger!
Hi I'm 8156, our leader is Bearpaw.
YOU CANNOT REASON WITH A TIGER WHEN YOUR HEAD IS IN ITS MOUTH! Winston Churchill

Keep Calm And Duc On!

Offline Skillet

  • Business Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 4218
  • Location: Sitka / Everett
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2019, 12:41:19 PM »
You didn't just have this thing "tuned" did you?


Stock as a rock, man. I don't think Sinister has a fuel map for my application.
 :chuckle:
KABOOM Count - 1

"The ocean is calling, and I must go."

Offline Skillet

  • Business Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 4218
  • Location: Sitka / Everett
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2019, 12:43:46 PM »
If there is anywhere that oil and fuel are in the same vicinity, give it a look see.

There were a number a farm tractors where pressurized diesel could enter the crankcase at the injector pump engine connection
This is what I was concerned about. They use this engine in sime Massey Fergusen tractors, Hesston mowers, etc. Hoping the new injectors fix the issue, though. 
KABOOM Count - 1

"The ocean is calling, and I must go."

Offline KFhunter

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 19888
  • Location: The Wedge
  • My posts do not reflect an official opinion of HW
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2019, 02:10:40 PM »
not familiar with Sisu, but aren't your injectors outside of the valve cover?   
So you'd see a leaky injector as it would run down the outside of the block and not make engine oil.

I find it very unlikely two injectors would go out at the same time.


The p pump uses engine oil to lube the cam and internals of the pump, diesel is probably getting in there.   If the pump is on its last leg, that would explain multiple cylinder misfires at low idle speed  (lack of fuel pressure)

that's a long run to be washing cylinders, best of luck 


A high pressure fuel gauge would help here, also low side fuel pressure. 
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 04:49:16 PM by KFhunter »

Offline Skillet

  • Business Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 4218
  • Location: Sitka / Everett
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2019, 02:37:07 PM »
not familiar with Sisu, but aren't your injectors outside of the valve cover?   
So you'd see a leaky injector as it would run down the outside of the block and not make engine oil.

I find it very unlikely two injectors would go out at the same time.


The p pump uses engine oil to lube the cam and internals of the pump, diesel is probably getting in there.   If the pump is on its last leg, that would explain multiple cylinder misfires at low idle speed  (lack of fuel pressure)

that's a long run to be washing cylinders, best of luck 


A high pressure fuel gauge on the common rail would help here, also low side fuel pressure.

They are outside the cover. If I understand what I'm hearing from others, the injectors might be stuck open, over fueling those two cylinders and pushing fuel past the rings?  When on the back deck during the run to town, I could definitely smell unburnt diesel. 

My fear is that it's the pump leaking, but I'm making a $1k bet that the injectors being shipped from Ontario will get me fishing. I'm hoping it was the fuel from the remote fuel dock that precipitated the two injectors failing together. If not... The pump is not readily available through the AGCO dealer network at this time.

I'm already thinking about having to knock off early this year and do an inframe over the winter if I did real damage. 
KABOOM Count - 1

"The ocean is calling, and I must go."

Offline KFhunter

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 19888
  • Location: The Wedge
  • My posts do not reflect an official opinion of HW
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2019, 03:04:50 PM »
That makes since, so I'd want to know where the debris came from.   If you have good filtration it should have been pulled out of the fuel before it hit the pump, if the pump is going out maybe debris came from the pump and stuck the injectors open. 

In any case that doesn't help your run back to town and seeing a mechanic.



I'd change injectors anyways if the pump went out, not too big of a gamble there.

Offline 7mmfan

  • Non-Hunting Topics
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2008
  • Posts: 3829
  • Location: Marysville
    • https://www.facebook.com/rory.oconnor.9480
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2019, 03:07:35 PM »
If you blow that engine up you'll have to up your KABOOM count to 2.
I hunt, therefore I am.... I fish, therefore I lie.

Offline dyhardhuntr

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Tracker
  • **
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 74
  • Location: Kelso,WA.
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2019, 03:27:25 PM »
If that is a common rail fuel system chances are the pump is lubricated with fuel and not oil. Common rail runs at such high psi it doesnít matter how long your lines are itís still going to get fuel into the combustion chamber. Washing a cylinder is a byproduct of that. You could have gotten dirty fuel but I would think water got in and not debris unless your pump is failing. Iím curious who the designer is(hopefully not Bosch and itís similar to the gm fuel system). If you had a cracked injector or a missing tip it could easily cause that amount of fuel. Although if you find a missing tip you will need to check the outlet of the turbo and pull the head anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline pup0025

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Tracker
  • **
  • Join Date: Aug 2018
  • Posts: 54
  • Location: Yacolt
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2019, 03:28:48 PM »
I would say pump.  If it was a common rail system I would guess injectors.  That p7100 is what's going to set the fuel timing and rate.  I'm guessing something went wrong in the pump and half the diesel that's meant for the injectors is making it into the pump body and Into the oil.  That's my guess. :twocents:

Offline KFhunter

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 19888
  • Location: The Wedge
  • My posts do not reflect an official opinion of HW
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2019, 04:44:38 PM »
If that is a common rail fuel system chances are the pump is lubricated with fuel and not oil. Common rail runs at such high psi it doesnít matter how long your lines are itís still going to get fuel into the combustion chamber. Washing a cylinder is a byproduct of that. You could have gotten dirty fuel but I would think water got in and not debris unless your pump is failing. Iím curious who the designer is(hopefully not Bosch and itís similar to the gm fuel system). If you had a cracked injector or a missing tip it could easily cause that amount of fuel. Although if you find a missing tip you will need to check the outlet of the turbo and pull the head anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He said it was a Bosch p7100,  which is lubricated with engine oil and is't a common rail system. 

Offline Skillet

  • Business Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 4218
  • Location: Sitka / Everett
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2019, 07:17:00 PM »
Roger, not common rail.

Based in part on some great input from knowledgeable folks here, I decided to bite the bullet, take off the pump, and send it down to Seattle for a speedy rebuild.  If this pans out, I have a huge thank you to give a certain member here for hooking it up.   He shall remain nameless at this point, however, for if I never see my pump again, I'll petition site ownership for his permanent banning  :chuckle:
KABOOM Count - 1

"The ocean is calling, and I must go."

Offline Birdguy

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2008
  • Posts: 3077
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2019, 09:23:46 PM »
 :tup: Best of luck with the fix and rebuild Skillet!! Know you cannot afford to be down to long so hope it all goes perfect! Another great thing about this forum for sure!!!

Offline jackelope

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+22)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 39921
  • Location: Duvall, WA
  • Groups: WSB RMGA NRA RMEF BHA
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2019, 09:28:08 PM »
Roger, not common rail.

Based in part on some great input from knowledgeable folks here, I decided to bite the bullet, take off the pump, and send it down to Seattle for a speedy rebuild.  If this pans out, I have a huge thank you to give a certain member here for hooking it up.   He shall remain nameless at this point, however, for if I never see my pump again, I'll petition site ownership for his permanent banning  :chuckle:

If you sent it to Seattle Injector, youíll be fine.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline hollymaster

  • Non-Hunting Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 1015
  • Location: Enumclaw
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2019, 10:02:08 PM »
Roger, not common rail.

Based in part on some great input from knowledgeable folks here, I decided to bite the bullet, take off the pump, and send it down to Seattle for a speedy rebuild.  If this pans out, I have a huge thank you to give a certain member here for hooking it up.   He shall remain nameless at this point, however, for if I never see my pump again, I'll petition site ownership for his permanent banning  :chuckle:

If you sent it to Seattle Injector, youíll be fine.
:yeah: Had a super odd ball injector pump they were able to rebuild for me.  :tup:

Offline Alchase

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Explorer
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2007
  • Posts: 13931
  • Location: Tinker AFB, OK
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2019, 10:59:32 AM »
This thread has been a cool read, learned a lot about Diesel engines that to be honest are alien to me.
Sorry it is at your expense Skillet, but thanks for sharing!
Only 2 defining forces sacrificed themselves for you:
The American Soldier and Jesus Christ. One died for your freedom, the other for your soul.

My rock,
He trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle.
Psalm 144.1

Offline Skillet

  • Business Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 4218
  • Location: Sitka / Everett
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2019, 10:08:06 AM »
Got a few minutes while waiting for my unload appt, wanted to give a quick update:

I took the injection pump off and put it and the original set of injectors on a plane to SeaTac.  In the mean time I installed the New set of injectors.

The guys at Seattle Injector arranged for a courier to pick it up.  They jumped on it and got it turned around in an impressively short time, took it back to the airport for me and put it on the plane to Sitka.  Rick reported that it was actually an "A" pump, news to me.  He said the pump looked like it had normal wear for a 16k+ hour unit, but the rebuild was going to be warranted at about 20k hours, so I consider this a good investment in early maintenance and piece of mind. He did report, however, that two of my six injectors were stuck open, over fueling cyls #3 and #6.  We discussed the possibility of my washing down the cyl walls, and he said tho it would be better if I hadn't run it all that way in that condition, he thought I would be ok. Total bill was a little over $2200.  He could have charged double that and I would have happily paid it..  Down time is expensive.

 I met it at the airport, put a decent paint job on it and had it installed that night.  After a phone call the next morning and a bit of fiddling with the governor stop, it was running as good as it ever has.  Have put 200 hours on it since and has performed flawlessly.

Thanks to all of the Hunt Wa'ers who chimed in on this, the info was great.  And a special thanks, maybe a KaBoom even, goes to @woodchuck for his help, vast knowledge, and connections that helped me get turned around and back on the water as fast as I did.
KABOOM Count - 1

"The ocean is calling, and I must go."

Offline Fl0und3rz

  • Political Topics
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Legend
  • ******
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 33840
  • Location: E. WA
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2019, 10:26:11 AM »
H-W saves the day, again.

This thread has been a cool read, learned a lot about Diesel engines that to be honest are alien to me.
Sorry it is at your expense Skillet, but thanks for sharing!

:yeah:

Offline 7mmfan

  • Non-Hunting Topics
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2008
  • Posts: 3829
  • Location: Marysville
    • https://www.facebook.com/rory.oconnor.9480
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2019, 11:01:02 AM »
 :tup:
I hunt, therefore I am.... I fish, therefore I lie.

Online Woodchuck

  • GO TEAM!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 11022
  • Location: Walla Walla
  • HuntWA Woodblock
Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2019, 08:59:52 AM »
Got a few minutes while waiting for my unload appt, wanted to give a quick update:

I took the injection pump off and put it and the original set of injectors on a plane to SeaTac.  In the mean time I installed the New set of injectors.

The guys at Seattle Injector arranged for a courier to pick it up.  They jumped on it and got it turned around in an impressively short time, took it back to the airport for me and put it on the plane to Sitka.  Rick reported that it was actually an "A" pump, news to me.  He said the pump looked like it had normal wear for a 16k+ hour unit, but the rebuild was going to be warranted at about 20k hours, so I consider this a good investment in early maintenance and piece of mind. He did report, however, that two of my six injectors were stuck open, over fueling cyls #3 and #6.  We discussed the possibility of my washing down the cyl walls, and he said tho it would be better if I hadn't run it all that way in that condition, he thought I would be ok. Total bill was a little over $2200.  He could have charged double that and I would have happily paid it..  Down time is expensive.

 I met it at the airport, put a decent paint job on it and had it installed that night.  After a phone call the next morning and a bit of fiddling with the governor stop, it was running as good as it ever has.  Have put 200 hours on it since and has performed flawlessly.

Thanks to all of the Hunt Wa'ers who chimed in on this, the info was great.  And a special thanks, maybe a KaBoom even, goes to @Woodchuck for his help, vast knowledge, and connections that helped me get turned around and back on the water as fast as I did.
I am just glad it worked out as well as it did, stay safe my friend.  :tup:
Antlered rabbit tastes like chicken


Inuendo, wasn't he an Italian proctoligist?

 


* Advertisement

* Recent Topics

Tesla Cyber Truck by Wunderlich33
[Today at 01:45:16 PM]


Help picking out a Christmas rifle for My Boy coming back from deployment by slowhand
[Today at 01:43:00 PM]


2019 Deer Post em here by buckfvr
[Today at 01:42:36 PM]


Square Frames by Ironhead
[Today at 01:36:11 PM]


Tipi Build, Design Help Needed by luvmystang67
[Today at 01:28:59 PM]


High vs low end tents by Jpmiller
[Today at 01:27:32 PM]


2019 Blacktail - Post em up Here! by Thehowler
[Today at 01:24:56 PM]


Cougar killing coyote by Jpmiller
[Today at 01:24:37 PM]


Wolves on Bethel by KFhunter
[Today at 01:15:24 PM]


Lead Pourers by Bill W
[Today at 01:05:08 PM]


150 miles of water !! by Curly
[Today at 12:59:30 PM]


WTS: 2001 Coleman/Fleetwood Mesa Pop-Up Camper - Price Reduced by rainshadow1
[Today at 12:57:05 PM]


Gunsmith Recommendations? Shotguns--- by Henrydog
[Today at 12:46:08 PM]


270 for all round gun? by b23
[Today at 12:29:27 PM]


270s huckleberry moose 2019 by jmscon
[Today at 12:29:24 PM]


My Little Boy And His First Big Game Animal by Ghost Hunter
[Today at 11:57:50 AM]


Play Free: Hunting-Washington $100 Monthly Lotto! by HereDuckyDucky
[Today at 11:49:12 AM]


Like Father Like Son by bornhunter
[Today at 11:12:26 AM]


Winch in a Bag by 2MANY
[Today at 10:55:43 AM]


Grrrr, Trap thieves!! by Humptulips
[Today at 10:40:31 AM]