350 legend

[Ridgeratt]

I have been trolling the internet looking for a new calibre.
What is the 350 legend benefits? Anyone have any advice.

[kselkhunter]

Primary reason 350 Legend was created was for states that have seasons with cartridge length/straightwall/etc. limitations.  Primarily Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana.  Possibly a few others.  For "limited firearms zones" that used to be shotgun only.  Has to be 35 cal or bigger, straight wall, and 1.16" to 1.8" case length (depending on state).


It was based on a 223 case design with straight walls necked up to 35 cal, but because of rim diameter difference you can't really neck up 223 cases (as far as I know). Fires 150gr bullet at 2325fps muzzle velocity.  But in 35 cal bullets those 150gr are pretty small SD.  The 180gr bullet's SD is more useful for deer, but it's only around 2100fps in that caliber.  I'd say range on deer should stay less than 200 yards.   For elk, I'd be less than 150 or even 100 yards.


It's becoming more common in ARs now, which has caused a surge in popularity.  I'm not a fan of 223, so if I were to get an AR I'd get the 350 Legend instead (or a different caliber).  An AR is a good platform for the 350 Legend.


For hunting purposes, I'd lean towards something better than 350 Legend if I had a choice.  If wanting to go 35 cal there are far better cartridge options.   But if just looking for an excuse for a new rifle, sure why not.  A new gun is always a good idea.....

[Dan-o]

Primary reason 350 Legend was created was for states that have seasons with cartridge length/straightwall/etc. limitations.  Primarily Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana.  Possibly a few others.  For "limited firearms zones" that used to be shotgun only.  Has to be 35 cal or bigger, straight wall, and 1.16" to 1.8" case length (depending on state).


It was based on a 223 case design with straight walls necked up to 35 cal, but because of rim diameter difference you can't really neck up 223 cases (as far as I know). Fires 150gr bullet at 2325fps muzzle velocity.  But in 35 cal bullets those 150gr are pretty small SD.  The 180gr bullet's SD is more useful for deer, but it's only around 2100fps in that caliber.  I'd say range on deer should stay less than 200 yards.   For elk, I'd be less than 150 or even 100 yards.


It's becoming more common in ARs now, which has caused a surge in popularity.  I'm not a fan of 223, so if I were to get an AR I'd get the 350 Legend instead (or a different caliber).  An AR is a good platform for the 350 Legend.


For hunting purposes, I'd lean towards something better than 350 Legend if I had a choice.  If wanting to go 35 cal there are far better cartridge options.   But if just looking for an excuse for a new rifle, sure why not.  A new gun is always a good idea.....

That's a really good summary.     

[BigGoonTuna]

If you lived in one of those areas that requires straight wall cases within certain length requirements I can see it having some merit, but I’d rather have a .358 Winchester or even a .35 Remington for out here. But, I’ve got little interest in ar15s, neither of those will fit in one.

[Ridgeratt]

I was just reading about it.  Saw that it was offered in a ar platform and also a sporting rifle.  While I own a 350 mag. Just wondered what the thought about it was.  I  have loaded up some lighter loads and was curious about it.

[Yondering]

It was based on a 223 case design with straight walls necked up to 35 cal, but because of rim diameter difference you can't really neck up 223 cases (as far as I know).

You can neck up the 223 case for .357 bullets; it's been done a long time before the 350 Legend came out and I've done it myself.

The Legend started with some good ideas, but ended up as a comedy of errors. It's the classic "designed by committee" product - the design choices they made really look like there were too many people wanting input on it, with the end result being compromises in all the wrong areas.

- They made the case web area .390" diameter instead of the standard .374" of 223 brass; this was good to allow for larger .357"-.358" bullets and variation in neck thickness, but then they specified .355" bullets for it. (and yes, it does have a .355" bore and throat, not .357" as sometimes speculated) With .355" bullets, they could have just used standard 5.56 brass.

- Very few .355" bullets on the market will feed correctly in the Legend, or are able to handle the higher velocity since they're designed for the 9mm, not rifle velocity. Many of the .357" and .358" common bullets would work well at Legend velocity, and are shaped right to feed well too, but they don't fit because of point #1.

- This leaves us with the few bullets specifically designed for the 350 Legend. Those few choices are fine, but it could have been so much better with the ability to use .357" and .358" bullets.

- Also, for those of us interested in tapping into the virtually unlimited supply of good 5.56 brass - you can neck up that brass and it will fire and form to the chamber adequately, BUT - it's about .050" too short after trimming to even out the case necks. That is a no-go for a cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth. I don't know if they did that on purpose, or just didn't care.

All in all, the 350 Legend is very poorly designed IMO, and that's coming from someone who really likes 35 caliber rifles. If you don't really need the 35 caliber, I suggest just going with a 300 Blackout instead; it's more versatile and much easier to make it work well in an AR, and has a lot more bullet choices that perform very well.

[konradcountry]

All in all, the 350 Legend is very poorly designed IMO, and that's coming from someone who really likes 35 caliber rifles.

I'll play devil's advocate.

It's definitely not designed for reloaders. In fact it is entirely possible that they designed it to discourage reloading.

It does excel at turning your AR into a 30-30 at minimal cost. I've seen a lot of good reviews on value priced barrels and it doesn't require a different bolt carrier group.

If you don't reload and hunt with an AR within 30-30 ranges it is definitely worth looking at. 

A lot of people might wonder why the straight wall states would want another caliber when there is already 450 bushmaster. Well most people don't reload so the ammo costs will add up and you need a new BCG with that caliber.

So I think the 350 legend makes a lot of sense if you look at the targeted group for which it was designed.

[Dan-o]

I think I just gained really good perspective, both from Yondering and Konradcountry.....   By which I mean that I think you're both right when looking at it from your own perspectives.

Me:     I'm not a reloader anymore, and being a father of 5 doesn't leave me with $$$$ just dripping out of my pockets.  So being able to buy an upper and turn it into a 350 Legend might be a good deal (except I already have a 6.5 Grendel).

Thanks, Gents.
Some of the most insightful commentary I've read in a little while.     

[Fl0und3rz]

You see, when a .35 Remington loves a .30 Carbine . . . .

[mountainman]

Maybe look at a 35 Gremlin? Parent brass is readily available

[Yondering]

All in all, the 350 Legend is very poorly designed IMO, and that's coming from someone who really likes 35 caliber rifles.

I'll play devil's advocate.

It's definitely not designed for reloaders. In fact it is entirely possible that they designed it to discourage reloading.

It does excel at turning your AR into a 30-30 at minimal cost. I've seen a lot of good reviews on value priced barrels and it doesn't require a different bolt carrier group.

If you don't reload and hunt with an AR within 30-30 ranges it is definitely worth looking at. 

A lot of people might wonder why the straight wall states would want another caliber when there is already 450 bushmaster. Well most people don't reload so the ammo costs will add up and you need a new BCG with that caliber.

So I think the 350 legend makes a lot of sense if you look at the targeted group for which it was designed.

True, but even without considering reloading it still has two major drawbacks:
- That long straight wall case is prone to some feeding issues.
- It doesn't take advantage of the huge variety of good and proven bullets that are already on the market. That leaves Winchester to re-invent the wheel, which they may or may not do right. They don't have a very good track record lately.
- OK here's a third that illustrates how they really screwed up the whole idea: it doesn't technically meet the .357" or larger requirement in those straight wall states. Sure, it's been accepted now, after the fact, but the rules plainly stated .357"+ at the time when the cartridge was designed, and they missed the mark for the entire reason the cartridge exists. Designed by a committee indeed.

[Yondering]

Maybe look at a 35 Gremlin? Parent brass is readily available

I haven't tried it but that should be an excellent cartridge.

I do have a similar wildcat I designed myself that uses the 6.8 SPC case (rather than the Grendel case for the Gremlin); I call it the 358 Herrett AR because it uses shortened 357 Herrett dies (and the chamber reamer too) but with a .358" bore to use the common 200gr 35 Remington bullets. From a 16" AR15 barrel it duplicates the 35 Remington. I believe the Gremlin should be capable of very similar ballistics.

Here's some pics, because we all like pics: 

300 Blackout on the left, 358 Herrett AR on the right. That blue hollow point is a 255gr cast that I designed for subsonic use; it's worked really well on whitetail deer.


The magazines have to be modified. Incidentally this same modification will let GI 5.56 mags work with the 350 Legend, for the same reason - that rib that rides on the 5.56 neck has to be removed to work with the wider 35 caliber case neck.

[konradcountry]

It doesn't take advantage of the huge variety of good and proven bullets that are already on the market. That leaves Winchester to re-invent the wheel, which they may or may not do right. They don't have a very good track record lately.

I actually doubt that was an oversight.

They also could have designed it to use 5.56 brass.

My guess is that they made design decisions to maximize shelf sales, even if temporary. With hunting ammo there is probably a run up of sales early and then it tapers off.

Their own plinking ammo is only 60 cents a round while 350 brass is 30 cents each.

So I think they are playing market games which I understand might annoy reloaders.

[Goshawk]

Primary reason 350 Legend was created was for states that have seasons with cartridge length/straightwall/etc. limitations.  Primarily Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana.  Possibly a few others.  For "limited firearms zones" that used to be shotgun only.  Has to be 35 cal or bigger, straight wall, and 1.16" to 1.8" case length (depending on state).


It was based on a 223 case design with straight walls necked up to 35 cal, but because of rim diameter difference you can't really neck up 223 cases (as far as I know). Fires 150gr bullet at 2325fps muzzle velocity.  But in 35 cal bullets those 150gr are pretty small SD.  The 180gr bullet's SD is more useful for deer, but it's only around 2100fps in that caliber.  I'd say range on deer should stay less than 200 yards.   For elk, I'd be less than 150 or even 100 yards.


It's becoming more common in ARs now, which has caused a surge in popularity.  I'm not a fan of 223, so if I were to get an AR I'd get the 350 Legend instead (or a different caliber).  An AR is a good platform for the 350 Legend.


For hunting purposes, I'd lean towards something better than 350 Legend if I had a choice.  If wanting to go 35 cal there are far better cartridge options.   But if just looking for an excuse for a new rifle, sure why not.  A new gun is always a good idea.....