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Author Topic: Coloradans unleash wolves on their neighbors: A fitting metaphor for COVID  (Read 12832 times)

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Coloradans unleash wolves on their neighbors: A fitting metaphor for COVID
« Reply #270 on: January 12, 2021, 08:09:46 PM »
That's dead.

Take your rubbish elsewhere

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Offline Hydrophilic

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Re: Coloradans unleash wolves on their neighbors: A fitting metaphor for COVID
« Reply #271 on: January 13, 2021, 08:16:18 AM »
ALC is not dead and those words are still on the official platform so we will see in 2024 if they have enough sense to remove them. I sincerely hope you are correct sir.


Offline KFhunter

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Re: Coloradans unleash wolves on their neighbors: A fitting metaphor for COVID
« Reply #272 on: January 13, 2021, 08:44:59 AM »
ALC is not dead and those words are still on the official platform so we will see in 2024 if they have enough sense to remove them. I sincerely hope you are correct sir.
It is dead, the main thrust of federal lands transferred to the states died with the Bundy's. 

The push back came from both sides of the political spectrum, including me.
 
It was explored, the public made their voices heard, it died.  Get over it.

Yet conservation orgs still use it to drive membership and $$

Its a non-issue and disingenuous to keep pushing it. 

And Trump is out anyways, its time to move on.



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Offline highcountry_hunter

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Re: Coloradans unleash wolves on their neighbors: A fitting metaphor for COVID
« Reply #273 on: January 13, 2021, 09:40:43 AM »
ALC is not dead and those words are still on the official platform so we will see in 2024 if they have enough sense to remove them. I sincerely hope you are correct sir.
It is dead, the main thrust of federal lands transferred to the states died with the Bundy's. 

The push back came from both sides of the political spectrum, including me.
 
It was explored, the public made their voices heard, it died.  Get over it.

Yet conservation orgs still use it to drive membership and $$

Its a non-issue and disingenuous to keep pushing it. 

And Trump is out anyways, its time to move on.



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For cripes sakes, hydro agrees with you that he hopes ALC is removed and you still feel the need to come off as a prick to him. Iíve never felt the need to tell someone whoís in agreement with me on an issue to ďget over itĒ

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Coloradans unleash wolves on their neighbors: A fitting metaphor for COVID
« Reply #274 on: January 13, 2021, 11:59:28 AM »
I didn't take it that way and if read his previous posts he makes mention of it.

ALC has been thrown in our faces for years, those who are to the right side of the spectrum in regards to conservation.   It goes back to the tired old BHA arguments we've had on this forum.



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Offline idaho guy

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Re: Coloradans unleash wolves on their neighbors: A fitting metaphor for COVID
« Reply #275 on: January 13, 2021, 06:52:21 PM »
Deer, elk and moose are wolves primary food source. There is no doubt that they decrease ungulate populations where they reside. The question is how much do they decrease the population. Is the effect linear as wolf population increases? As wolf population increases does secondary mortality and lower calving rates increase due to stress? In a state where options for controlling wolf population is very limited its troubling because wolf populations will grow for many years to come and the effects will likely compound.
 


 :yeah: thatís the sad part of it. Washington,Oregon and maybe Colorado Will be screwed on this since liberal politics are already influencing game management

It's not as simple as that. Everyone has heard the pendulum example in politics. It sways one way with certain force, it will soon sway back the other way with equal force.

Wolves were extirpated from many states and cougars were hunted down to 200 in Oregon, in the late 1960's.

https://myodfw.com/big-game-hunting/species/cougar

For a hunter who cares about nothing else than horns or meat that was probably fantastic. For the average citizen, scientist, conservationist, national geographic reader, etc., it was a tragedy, and now they have caught the pendulum where they have been able to, more liberal states, and are holding it for the moment, I can't honestly blame them. The logical place is somewhere in between. Healthy predator populations that support the best hunting opportunities possible. That doesn't mean plugging every forest with as many elk as possible and it also doesn't mean culling the predators by 50% every time the elk enter a down cycle.

I would very seriously entertain studies on the relationship between cougars and mule deer in Oregon, given we have such a healthy cougar population. Not because I think they are the primary cause of the decline, but because they could potentially be a huge additive factor in it. Right now there are 30% less in utero fawn rates than there should be for a normal population -- that's insane. A lot of deer are dying from starvation in the summer when they should be fat. That's not predators, thats the mess we have created, not one side or the other, but everyone. This info is from a biologist, and I relate to his info after seeing fields and fields of cheat grass, medusahead, in what used to be native bunch grass , shrub prairies. Terrifying.

On a side note - for those who don't like sharing federal public lands and public resources with other user groups you can support an organization known as American Lands Council which would love to transfer federal land back to the states. This position was also recently added to a prominent platform in this country so it's gaining steam.
     

I agree alc is dead not interested. I will leave you with this tidbit on your cougar and mule deer study.lions eat 52 deer per year on average. I will leave it at that and again I am a hound hunter who values some lions in the woods and let treed cats go on a regular basis in Idaho where they are hunted hard . But you cant have an exploding cat population and healthy deer herds at the same time. You CAN have lions AND deer if its balanced and they are both appropriately managed.  Bring back hounds if you can besides its the only form of hunting where its truly possible to "catch and release". I don't want to debate this as it would totally derail this thread even more. Just think about that -52 deer per year on average.   

Offline Hydrophilic

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Re: Coloradans unleash wolves on their neighbors: A fitting metaphor for COVID
« Reply #276 on: January 13, 2021, 07:29:58 PM »
Deer, elk and moose are wolves primary food source. There is no doubt that they decrease ungulate populations where they reside. The question is how much do they decrease the population. Is the effect linear as wolf population increases? As wolf population increases does secondary mortality and lower calving rates increase due to stress? In a state where options for controlling wolf population is very limited its troubling because wolf populations will grow for many years to come and the effects will likely compound.
 


 :yeah: thatís the sad part of it. Washington,Oregon and maybe Colorado Will be screwed on this since liberal politics are already influencing game management

It's not as simple as that. Everyone has heard the pendulum example in politics. It sways one way with certain force, it will soon sway back the other way with equal force.

Wolves were extirpated from many states and cougars were hunted down to 200 in Oregon, in the late 1960's.

https://myodfw.com/big-game-hunting/species/cougar

For a hunter who cares about nothing else than horns or meat that was probably fantastic. For the average citizen, scientist, conservationist, national geographic reader, etc., it was a tragedy, and now they have caught the pendulum where they have been able to, more liberal states, and are holding it for the moment, I can't honestly blame them. The logical place is somewhere in between. Healthy predator populations that support the best hunting opportunities possible. That doesn't mean plugging every forest with as many elk as possible and it also doesn't mean culling the predators by 50% every time the elk enter a down cycle.

I would very seriously entertain studies on the relationship between cougars and mule deer in Oregon, given we have such a healthy cougar population. Not because I think they are the primary cause of the decline, but because they could potentially be a huge additive factor in it. Right now there are 30% less in utero fawn rates than there should be for a normal population -- that's insane. A lot of deer are dying from starvation in the summer when they should be fat. That's not predators, thats the mess we have created, not one side or the other, but everyone. This info is from a biologist, and I relate to his info after seeing fields and fields of cheat grass, medusahead, in what used to be native bunch grass , shrub prairies. Terrifying.

On a side note - for those who don't like sharing federal public lands and public resources with other user groups you can support an organization known as American Lands Council which would love to transfer federal land back to the states. This position was also recently added to a prominent platform in this country so it's gaining steam.
     

I agree alc is dead not interested. I will leave you with this tidbit on your cougar and mule deer study.lions eat 52 deer per year on average. I will leave it at that and again I am a hound hunter who values some lions in the woods and let treed cats go on a regular basis in Idaho where they are hunted hard . But you cant have an exploding cat population and healthy deer herds at the same time. You CAN have lions AND deer if its balanced and they are both appropriately managed.  Bring back hounds if you can besides its the only form of hunting where its truly possible to "catch and release". I don't want to debate this as it would totally derail this thread even more. Just think about that -52 deer per year on average.   

Think about 30% less in utero fawn rates and deer starving in the summer. It can hardly be blamed on one factor - I would love to talk about this some other time. Cheers

Offline wolfbait

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Re: Coloradans unleash wolves on their neighbors: A fitting metaphor for COVID
« Reply #277 on: January 14, 2021, 08:08:48 PM »
Deer, elk and moose are wolves primary food source. There is no doubt that they decrease ungulate populations where they reside. The question is how much do they decrease the population. Is the effect linear as wolf population increases? As wolf population increases does secondary mortality and lower calving rates increase due to stress? In a state where options for controlling wolf population is very limited its troubling because wolf populations will grow for many years to come and the effects will likely compound.
 


 :yeah: thatís the sad part of it. Washington,Oregon and maybe Colorado Will be screwed on this since liberal politics are already influencing game management

It's not as simple as that. Everyone has heard the pendulum example in politics. It sways one way with certain force, it will soon sway back the other way with equal force.

Wolves were extirpated from many states and cougars were hunted down to 200 in Oregon, in the late 1960's.

https://myodfw.com/big-game-hunting/species/cougar

For a hunter who cares about nothing else than horns or meat that was probably fantastic. For the average citizen, scientist, conservationist, national geographic reader, etc., it was a tragedy, and now they have caught the pendulum where they have been able to, more liberal states, and are holding it for the moment, I can't honestly blame them. The logical place is somewhere in between. Healthy predator populations that support the best hunting opportunities possible. That doesn't mean plugging every forest with as many elk as possible and it also doesn't mean culling the predators by 50% every time the elk enter a down cycle.

I would very seriously entertain studies on the relationship between cougars and mule deer in Oregon, given we have such a healthy cougar population. Not because I think they are the primary cause of the decline, but because they could potentially be a huge additive factor in it. Right now there are 30% less in utero fawn rates than there should be for a normal population -- that's insane. A lot of deer are dying from starvation in the summer when they should be fat. That's not predators, thats the mess we have created, not one side or the other, but everyone. This info is from a biologist, and I relate to his info after seeing fields and fields of cheat grass, medusahead, in what used to be native bunch grass , shrub prairies. Terrifying.

On a side note - for those who don't like sharing federal public lands and public resources with other user groups you can support an organization known as American Lands Council which would love to transfer federal land back to the states. This position was also recently added to a prominent platform in this country so it's gaining steam.
     

I agree alc is dead not interested. I will leave you with this tidbit on your cougar and mule deer study.lions eat 52 deer per year on average. I will leave it at that and again I am a hound hunter who values some lions in the woods and let treed cats go on a regular basis in Idaho where they are hunted hard . But you cant have an exploding cat population and healthy deer herds at the same time. You CAN have lions AND deer if its balanced and they are both appropriately managed.  Bring back hounds if you can besides its the only form of hunting where its truly possible to "catch and release". I don't want to debate this as it would totally derail this thread even more. Just think about that -52 deer per year on average.   

Over 52 deer per years since wolves, as wolves drive cougars off their kills, I have seen the sign multiple times...Continue, you are doing a great job explaining wolf predation etc,  :tup:

Offline idaho guy

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Re: Coloradans unleash wolves on their neighbors: A fitting metaphor for COVID
« Reply #278 on: January 14, 2021, 08:35:11 PM »
Deer, elk and moose are wolves primary food source. There is no doubt that they decrease ungulate populations where they reside. The question is how much do they decrease the population. Is the effect linear as wolf population increases? As wolf population increases does secondary mortality and lower calving rates increase due to stress? In a state where options for controlling wolf population is very limited its troubling because wolf populations will grow for many years to come and the effects will likely compound.
 


 :yeah: thatís the sad part of it. Washington,Oregon and maybe Colorado Will be screwed on this since liberal politics are already influencing game management

It's not as simple as that. Everyone has heard the pendulum example in politics. It sways one way with certain force, it will soon sway back the other way with equal force.

Wolves were extirpated from many states and cougars were hunted down to 200 in Oregon, in the late 1960's.

https://myodfw.com/big-game-hunting/species/cougar

For a hunter who cares about nothing else than horns or meat that was probably fantastic. For the average citizen, scientist, conservationist, national geographic reader, etc., it was a tragedy, and now they have caught the pendulum where they have been able to, more liberal states, and are holding it for the moment, I can't honestly blame them. The logical place is somewhere in between. Healthy predator populations that support the best hunting opportunities possible. That doesn't mean plugging every forest with as many elk as possible and it also doesn't mean culling the predators by 50% every time the elk enter a down cycle.

I would very seriously entertain studies on the relationship between cougars and mule deer in Oregon, given we have such a healthy cougar population. Not because I think they are the primary cause of the decline, but because they could potentially be a huge additive factor in it. Right now there are 30% less in utero fawn rates than there should be for a normal population -- that's insane. A lot of deer are dying from starvation in the summer when they should be fat. That's not predators, thats the mess we have created, not one side or the other, but everyone. This info is from a biologist, and I relate to his info after seeing fields and fields of cheat grass, medusahead, in what used to be native bunch grass , shrub prairies. Terrifying.

On a side note - for those who don't like sharing federal public lands and public resources with other user groups you can support an organization known as American Lands Council which would love to transfer federal land back to the states. This position was also recently added to a prominent platform in this country so it's gaining steam.
     

I agree alc is dead not interested. I will leave you with this tidbit on your cougar and mule deer study.lions eat 52 deer per year on average. I will leave it at that and again I am a hound hunter who values some lions in the woods and let treed cats go on a regular basis in Idaho where they are hunted hard . But you cant have an exploding cat population and healthy deer herds at the same time. You CAN have lions AND deer if its balanced and they are both appropriately managed.  Bring back hounds if you can besides its the only form of hunting where its truly possible to "catch and release". I don't want to debate this as it would totally derail this thread even more. Just think about that -52 deer per year on average.   

Over 52 deer per years since wolves, as wolves drive cougars off their kills, I have seen the sign multiple times...Continue, you are doing a great job explaining wolf predation etc,  :tup:


Thatís a fact on wolves forcing lions off their kills. Thanks for pointing that out

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: Coloradans unleash wolves on their neighbors: A fitting metaphor for COVID
« Reply #279 on: January 15, 2021, 06:18:00 AM »
Perhaps you can also explain to those that don't know what the predator pit is

 


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