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Author Topic: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?  (Read 1107 times)

Offline GWP

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Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« on: March 03, 2021, 08:17:00 AM »
I have a Cabela's Hawkins 50 and was looking at 209 conversions, so was studying the regs. Thinking 'outside the box' It struck me that if a person took their 45/70, or some other big bore modern rifle with iron sights, took a machined or modified replacement case that only had a drilled hole all the way through so it could not hold a bullet, you could muzzle load it and be legal? Might have to patch or sabot, but it would work. I looked a couple times and see nothing that would prevent doing it by the way the regs are written.
Not looking to argue whether it would be a 'good' idea, or 'not traditional', just if it would be legal under the way the rules are written?

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2021, 08:27:21 AM »
“By using a modified Remington Model 700 bolt action with a special breech plug and primed case that could accommodate a magnum rifle primer and safely shoot up to 200 grains of a black powder substitute, the Remington Model 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader can shoot at a higher velocity than typical muzzleloaders. “

If you stick close to Remingtons UML I dont see a problem?

Offline Reidus

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2021, 08:54:06 AM »
I have a cva scout in 45-70 that I plan to convert to a muzzleloader. It just needs threaded for a breech plug. I need a special fixture for it to fit in my lathe so until i get that built it's  on hold. Arrowhead sporting goods sells breech plugs and primer modules. This setup will actually be rated for smokeless powder. You can convert pretty much any bolt rifle and some others to a muzzleloader with a new barrel and breech plug. They'll out perform pretty much any muzzleloader on the market. They'll do 2400fps with 300gr bullet and shoot sub moa or better.

Offline GWP

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2021, 08:59:08 AM »
Had to look that one up as I was unaware of it. Even easier than I thought making use of that system. With a 45/70 or other straight wall brass, just sleeve the inside of the case to choke it down. That would work with a rifled or smooth bore shotgun as well. With a straight smooth bore shotgun you could probably shove a slug down the barrel Dang! That could be fun to play with just to see how hard it would be to make it accurate!

Offline GWP

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2021, 09:02:40 AM »
I have a cva scout in 45-70 that I plan to convert to a muzzleloader. It just needs threaded for a breech plug. I need a special fixture for it to fit in my lathe so until i get that built it's  on hold. Arrowhead sporting goods sells breech plugs and primer modules. This setup will actually be rated for smokeless powder. You can convert pretty much any bolt rifle and some others to a muzzleloader with a new barrel and breech plug. They'll out perform pretty much any muzzleloader on the market. They'll do 2400fps with 300gr bullet and shoot sub moa or better.

Why a breech plug? I am lacking some knowledge on the purpose. Couldn't you just use the sleeved brass? I it should seal fine?

Offline Reidus

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2021, 09:11:10 AM »
A couple thoughts...

1. You have to have a way to seal at the chamber end. So if you dont have a breech plug you'd need to use a brass case of some sort. Machined case probably wouldn't seal well.
2. If you could still shoot regular ammo out of it, it wouldn't be legal.
3. Without a breach plug you'd have to load the primed case before pouring powder and loading bullet and you wouldn't be able to unload it without shooting it or making a mess.
4. Accuracy would probably be really good as the bullet is already in the lands and there's no jump involved.

Seems easiest to just have a breech plug installed :twocents:

Offline GWP

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2021, 02:31:20 PM »
A couple thoughts...

1. You have to have a way to seal at the chamber end. So if you dont have a breech plug you'd need to use a brass case of some sort. Machined case probably wouldn't seal well.
2. If you could still shoot regular ammo out of it, it wouldn't be legal.
3. Without a breach plug you'd have to load the primed case before pouring powder and loading bullet and you wouldn't be able to unload it without shooting it or making a mess.
4. Accuracy would probably be really good as the bullet is already in the lands and there's no jump involved.

Seems easiest to just have a breech plug installed :twocents:

I don’t see anything to support the second point? As long as the case in the gun could not be loaded with a bullet, and it was muzzle loaded, it should be Ok. The 700 mentioned, which IS legal, does precisely that.
I think using a fireformed case, or belling the mouts slightly, would help it seal, but may leave a gap between the liner and case, if it was done that way. Otherwise, carefully measuring the chamber and turning for a very slight interference fit would work.

Offline Reidus

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2021, 04:19:57 PM »
This is all that I could find. Says you cant pack a modern firearm with you.

Offline Reidus

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2021, 04:40:10 PM »
The 700 muzzleloader has a breech plug so it wouldn't be the same thing.

Also in your case you could still load it from the breech if you wanted to so wouldn't that make it not a muzzleloader?

I think you'd have a tough time convincing a warden that it's a muzzleloader when there's no breech plug.

Maybe @BigTex will comment.

Offline Bunny Thumper

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2021, 05:07:11 PM »
When you get it all set up, where you going to put your ramrod?

Offline Ridgeratt

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2021, 05:18:32 PM »
So here is a concept. Since a 45/70 was originally a black powder weapon why couldn't you load a metallic cartridge an call it good 😤

Offline Reidus

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Offline GWP

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2021, 06:42:26 PM »
The regs DO specify ‘loaded from the muzzle’, so I think that would need to be the way it is done.
In the 70’s a friend and I muzzle loaded a 45/70 Trapdoor Springfield a couple times. We put an empty primered case in, then down the muzzle went powder and bullet. Because we did not have the correct bullet (used a modern jacketed round nose) it was quite difficult to load. But it did work. Most of the old Trapdoor’s came with a rod under the barrel for muzzle loading. We could open it up to see if the bullet seated in the case, which it did.
To make it legal here and shoot half way good, I would think the case would have to be modified so the bullet could not enter.
On the 700, the one I saw had a case you put a primer in, then put it in the chamber,  then closed the bolt to seat it, then muzzle load it. The bullet does not appear to ‘enter’ the short, thick walled case. I presume the foreword end of the case butts up on a ‘step’ is how it seals.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 07:00:23 PM by GWP »

Offline Reidus

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2021, 05:51:43 AM »
Because the 700 uml has a breech plug.

If  you could remove your modified case and shoot ammo out of it, it's still a modern  firearm.

Offline hunter399

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Re: Modern rifle ML conversion. Why not?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2021, 06:37:24 AM »

Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

 


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