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Author Topic: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States  (Read 3137 times)

Offline ducks4days

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2021, 08:09:40 AM »
Dennis, no worries. I try not to paint anybody with a broad brush, especially conservationists. Wildlife management decisions should be science based before anything else, and should try to elevate the health of the populations while doing the least amount of harm. I'm not opposed to predators or introduced species, I am opposed to metaphorically dropping elephants into the middle of the ocean or polar bears into the sahara, or pythons into the everglades. Unless we can guarantee the animals we introduce will 1) survive and establish breeding populations 2) not be overwhelmingly detrimental, we should probably not throw our undying support behind it and try to find a better way to do it.

Offline bigmacc

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2021, 03:40:32 PM »
Ill admit I haven't read through this whole thread but at face value, my opinion, just another way to do away with "game animals", short and sweet, "if there are no animals to hunt (elk, deer, moose etc, any animals you eat) and "nature" is taking care of the balance, then why do you all need these guns". Something to ponder. Wolves, cougars, predators in general, even with growing human population and expansion, they want more predators? Once again, something to ponder.

Offline idaho guy

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2021, 03:23:08 PM »
Ill admit I haven't read through this whole thread but at face value, my opinion, just another way to do away with "game animals", short and sweet, "if there are no animals to hunt (elk, deer, moose etc, any animals you eat) and "nature" is taking care of the balance, then why do you all need these guns". Something to ponder. Wolves, cougars, predators in general, even with growing human population and expansion, they want more predators? Once again, something to ponder.
   

I think this is a true agenda item of many extreme groups constantly pushing more predators into the landscape. It seemed too much like a conspiracy theory to me for a while but watching their actions I have come to believe this is a Real agenda item of these groups. I think it would be super cool to have jaguars in the southwest but have same concerns already mentioned. It was interesting to see these groups ďsupportĒ caribou in north Idaho and Washington when they felt like they could use it to close vast areas to logging and snowmobiles etc etc. I donít think it worked as well as hoped and as soon as we got wolves they basically screwed the the caribou in favor of more and more wolves. It appears they have little regard for the actual species but just what that species can do for their bigger agenda. Wolves and the lawsuits we dealt with and they kept moving the population numbers higher and higher no population number was enough. This all convinced me they are trying to break the North American wildlife model with predators and basically eliminating any surplus ungulates to hunt. Iím ok with wolves in Idaho itís been interesting and fun to have another animal to hunt and trap and managed at the RIGHT level I donít mind having them. My first reaction is to get super excited when I see something about re-introducing Jaguar. I would love to see one in the wild. Better yet would to be able to chase one with hounds and not to shoot it but just catch one would be amazing. But then I get nervous when I think about how wolves and grizzlies have been handled. They just want MORE never management. One of there favorite tricks is to use re introduction of endangered species is to shut down vast areas to almost any use. There is a lot of history with large predator reintroduction that should make any hunter and conservationist nervous.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2021, 05:27:09 PM »
I kind of went off on the predator thing  :chuckle: hits a nerve every time! I do think helping the jaguars recover would be great. I was just agreeing that we actually need a lot of these predators near and around the liberal areas to get some reasonable controls back. Jaguars in those areas mentioned would be great.

It'd be one thing if we could hunt them, and we know that would never happen. A Jaguar is like a cougar on steroids. We don't need them here. We don't need half of the predators we already have, as a matter of fact.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline nwwanderer

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2021, 06:34:33 AM »
If a few, mostly males just trying for a little solitude, wander into the borderlands that would be fine.  Do we need to spend millions on very marginal jag habitat?  Seems silly.  The San Diego Zoo people say the world population is 173,000, the Defenders of Wildlife say 64,000.  Be careful where you spend your hard earned dollar.

Offline bigmacc

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2021, 10:00:28 AM »
Ill admit I haven't read through this whole thread but at face value, my opinion, just another way to do away with "game animals", short and sweet, "if there are no animals to hunt (elk, deer, moose etc, any animals you eat) and "nature" is taking care of the balance, then why do you all need these guns". Something to ponder. Wolves, cougars, predators in general, even with growing human population and expansion, they want more predators? Once again, something to ponder.
   

I think this is a true agenda item of many extreme groups constantly pushing more predators into the landscape. It seemed too much like a conspiracy theory to me for a while but watching their actions I have come to believe this is a Real agenda item of these groups. I think it would be super cool to have jaguars in the southwest but have same concerns already mentioned. It was interesting to see these groups ďsupportĒ caribou in north Idaho and Washington when they felt like they could use it to close vast areas to logging and snowmobiles etc etc. I donít think it worked as well as hoped and as soon as we got wolves they basically screwed the the caribou in favor of more and more wolves. It appears they have little regard for the actual species but just what that species can do for their bigger agenda. Wolves and the lawsuits we dealt with and they kept moving the population numbers higher and higher no population number was enough. This all convinced me they are trying to break the North American wildlife model with predators and basically eliminating any surplus ungulates to hunt. Iím ok with wolves in Idaho itís been interesting and fun to have another animal to hunt and trap and managed at the RIGHT level I donít mind having them. My first reaction is to get super excited when I see something about re-introducing Jaguar. I would love to see one in the wild. Better yet would to be able to chase one with hounds and not to shoot it but just catch one would be amazing. But then I get nervous when I think about how wolves and grizzlies have been handled. They just want MORE never management. One of there favorite tricks is to use re introduction of endangered species is to shut down vast areas to almost any use. There is a lot of history with large predator reintroduction that should make any hunter and conservationist nervous.

I feel the same way, I have never been a "conspiracy" guy, have always been one to watch, listen and ask questions and sooner or later things start to make sense, what makes sense to me is there is big money in different groups that back a lot of these "predator" issues, BIG money! A lot of these groups are anti hunting/anti gun and love the fact that bringing back natural predators will do away with hunting and eventually help out with eroding the 2A and some of these groups have politicians in their back pockets. The coddling AND reintroduction of multiple predators into the landscape is in no way a positive if you have a hunting heritage and if it continues, it will have an effect on 2A rights down the road, mark my words, maybe not in our lifetime but for sure our kids or grandkids, its just another small, inconspicuous seed that will be planted, banked and used down the road to accomplish bigger agendas, I'm a firm NO to any more predator introductions, we already have many who's numbers are exploding... :twocents:

Offline ibuyre

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2021, 06:51:16 PM »
I think melanistic mt lion is a myth.

"Black Panther" just means a black or nearly black cat, but isn't a species.

The only species of cat that can be black is Jaguars and Leopards.

Really? Because I know people that have seen black cats hear in Wa. Shoot I saw a nearly black bobcat (lighting might have been part of it), if it was bigger and lol had a tail it would have been easy to think it was a Jaguar it was spotted and black.

Offline Alchase

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2021, 07:01:16 PM »
Mountain lions do not have the Melanistic gene.
No such thing as a black mountain lion.
Jaguars and leopards do.

What could possibly go wrong with reintroducing a apex predator 2-3 times the weight of a cougar, into a habitat owned by cougars and coyotes for a a hundred years?

We could start with downtown San Francisco
 :tup:
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Offline Humptulips

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2021, 07:20:26 PM »
Mountain lions do not have the Melanistic gene.
No such thing as a black mountain lion.
Jaguars and leopards do.

What could possibly go wrong with reintroducing a apex predator 2-3 times the weight of a cougar, into a habitat owned by cougars and coyotes for a a hundred years?

We could start with downtown San Francisco
 :tup:

Melanism is a genetic mutation. I see no reason why cougars are precluded from having a mutated gene.
Last year I saw a cougar cross the road. Got a pretty good look at it and it sure looked black to me. I've seen quite a few and I never saw anything like it. Another person said they saw a black cougar in the same area.
I wish I had a picture but it was there and then gone.
Bruce Vandervort

Offline Alchase

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2021, 07:50:21 PM »
Mountain lions do not have the Melanistic gene.
No such thing as a black mountain lion.
Jaguars and leopards do.

What could possibly go wrong with reintroducing a apex predator 2-3 times the weight of a cougar, into a habitat owned by cougars and coyotes for a a hundred years?

We could start with downtown San Francisco
 :tup:

Melanism is a genetic mutation. I see no reason why cougars are precluded from having a mutated gene.
Last year I saw a cougar cross the road. Got a pretty good look at it and it sure looked black to me. I've seen quite a few and I never saw anything like it. Another person said they saw a black cougar in the same area.
I wish I had a picture but it was there and then gone.


ď Mammals with this mutation are known as melanistic. In big cats, black panthers are actually jaguars or leopards. If you look closely enough, or have enough bright light, you can see spots amongst the dark fur. There has never been a confirmed or documented case of a melanistic mountain lion in the United States. Mistaken identities may also occur with the cougar's smaller relative, the bobcat. Bobcats can be melanistic too, but this is extremely rare with only 12 reported sightings across all of North America. Ē

https://emammal.si.edu/
Only 2 defining forces sacrificed themselves for you:
The American Soldier and Jesus Christ. One died for your freedom, the other for your soul.

My rock,
He trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle.
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Offline Wetwoodshunter

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2021, 09:32:21 PM »
Mountain lions do not have the Melanistic gene.
No such thing as a black mountain lion.
Jaguars and leopards do.

What could possibly go wrong with reintroducing a apex predator 2-3 times the weight of a cougar, into a habitat owned by cougars and coyotes for a a hundred years?

We could start with downtown San Francisco
 :tup:

Melanism is a genetic mutation. I see no reason why cougars are precluded from having a mutated gene.
Last year I saw a cougar cross the road. Got a pretty good look at it and it sure looked black to me. I've seen quite a few and I never saw anything like it. Another person said they saw a black cougar in the same area.
I wish I had a picture but it was there and then gone.


ď Mammals with this mutation are known as melanistic. In big cats, black panthers are actually jaguars or leopards. If you look closely enough, or have enough bright light, you can see spots amongst the dark fur. There has never been a confirmed or documented case of a melanistic mountain lion in the United States. Mistaken identities may also occur with the cougar's smaller relative, the bobcat. Bobcats can be melanistic too, but this is extremely rare with only 12 reported sightings across all of North America. Ē

https://emammal.si.edu/

I didn't know this was rare. I will try and dig up a picture of one that I have on my old phone from one in WA. It's not completely black but looks like the black took over and had a fully black face. In the area I saw this cat multiple people have reported black cougars to the local wildlife biologist.

Offline boneaddict

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2021, 07:14:23 AM »
I used to think it was cool to see a wolf.   That changed sometime back in the 80s.    Iíd just assume not repeat.   

Offline bigmacc

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2021, 02:23:58 PM »
I used to think it was cool to see a wolf.   That changed sometime back in the 80s.    Iíd just assume not repeat.
:yeah: :yeah:

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2021, 12:28:29 PM »
Why do people have such a *censored* for reintroducing species which have been extirpated from places? How would this population survive without a continuously connected genetic group on the landscape? How would they fare competing with native predators such as wolves, cougars, and bears? Do they have the genetic memory to target wild prey and not focus on livestock?

Jaguars thrive in Central and South America, reintroducing them in the continental US would do a disservice both to the jaguars and to the continental US.

Rumor has it bigfoot was supposed manage the wolf population and keep them in check, but Dan-o failed to get the communication across and now wolves are all over  :dunno:
I feel like you don't fully understand what kind of environment jaguars live in. And maybe you didn't read the whole article. They clearly would not be reintroducing them into areas that have wolves as that is not the right environment for them. Maybe they will cross paths with red wolves, and Arizona wolves, maybe not. What the article doesnt mention is that there is already a population of jaguars in the U.S. around the states bordering the gulf. People see them every so often. They have always been there. They would probably have ZERO problems establishing in area's like South Texas and Louisiana, Mississippi etc. All this whiny ranting over liberals wanting predators and blah blah blah about competing with other predators. Read a little more about it. They would most likely live where literally NO wolves live. Except for Arizona where jaguars are already found living in the same areas as wolves. There are very few cougars left in the South from the historical extermination attempts and bears are few in the South as well. If you consider yourself a true sportsman then you shouldn't mind helping out a species of animal that is endangered and giving up some areas for their benefit. I still agree with hound hunting cougars and bears. I agree with hunting wolves. I don't agree with exterminating an entire species from an area. Not helping them is a disservice to conservation which is what we as hunters should stand for. If your just into killing stuff with a gun go to a ranch somewhere and pay to shoot an ear tagged animal. I for one enjoy wildlife and the experience of seeing them in the wild acting naturally. Don't be greedy...

I am 100% against it, and here is why:

Specifically, you don't understand the lying dirtbags behind reintroduction.

Remember wolves........ 15o wolves and 15 breeding pairs.

Oh wait....   we meant 300 wolves and 30 breeding pairs.

Oh wait.....   We meant more than that, and will continually sue you for years while delaying delisting.



If wolf introduction taught me anything,  it's that you can count on the reintro folks to lie like nobody's business.



I am not anti-wolf, but I am 100% against these dirtbags.
"All of my best elk hunts are the ones where I come home with a big buck!" -RadSav

Offline idaho guy

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Re: Reintroduce Jaguars to the United States
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2021, 02:56:31 PM »
Why do people have such a *censored* for reintroducing species which have been extirpated from places? How would this population survive without a continuously connected genetic group on the landscape? How would they fare competing with native predators such as wolves, cougars, and bears? Do they have the genetic memory to target wild prey and not focus on livestock?

Jaguars thrive in Central and South America, reintroducing them in the continental US would do a disservice both to the jaguars and to the continental US.

Rumor has it bigfoot was supposed manage the wolf population and keep them in check, but Dan-o failed to get the communication across and now wolves are all over  :dunno:
I feel like you don't fully understand what kind of environment jaguars live in. And maybe you didn't read the whole article. They clearly would not be reintroducing them into areas that have wolves as that is not the right environment for them. Maybe they will cross paths with red wolves, and Arizona wolves, maybe not. What the article doesnt mention is that there is already a population of jaguars in the U.S. around the states bordering the gulf. People see them every so often. They have always been there. They would probably have ZERO problems establishing in area's like South Texas and Louisiana, Mississippi etc. All this whiny ranting over liberals wanting predators and blah blah blah about competing with other predators. Read a little more about it. They would most likely live where literally NO wolves live. Except for Arizona where jaguars are already found living in the same areas as wolves. There are very few cougars left in the South from the historical extermination attempts and bears are few in the South as well. If you consider yourself a true sportsman then you shouldn't mind helping out a species of animal that is endangered and giving up some areas for their benefit. I still agree with hound hunting cougars and bears. I agree with hunting wolves. I don't agree with exterminating an entire species from an area. Not helping them is a disservice to conservation which is what we as hunters should stand for. If your just into killing stuff with a gun go to a ranch somewhere and pay to shoot an ear tagged animal. I for one enjoy wildlife and the experience of seeing them in the wild acting naturally. Don't be greedy...

I am 100% against it, and here is why:

Specifically, you don't understand the lying dirtbags behind reintroduction.

Remember wolves........ 15o wolves and 15 breeding pairs.

Oh wait....   we meant 300 wolves and 30 breeding pairs.

Oh wait.....   We meant more than that, and will continually sue you for years while delaying delisting.



If wolf introduction taught me anything,  it's that you can count on the reintro folks to lie like nobody's business.



I am not anti-wolf, but I am 100% against these dirtbags.
 

 :yeah: That pretty much sums it up!

 


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