The ridiculousness of the Methow Valley and Mule deer

[wolfbait]

I don't think anyone on here believes that just the simple closure will solve the issue, but I for one believe it will help. Nobody has an answer for all the other wintering grounds and if we should quit closing them down for the same reasons? We're just giving predators the advantage...

Heavy predator control is the only thing that would turn this around, and then it's going to take more than a few years, and cutting doe tags would help. But even then with the predator pit our deer herd is in, I highly doubt at this point it can be turned around. How many wolves does WA have? And how would we go about killing enough to cut down on deer predation? What's the chance of a liberal hunting/trapping season on wolves in WA? And what's the chance of bringing hound hunting back for bears and cougars?

So now we get back to where we are, closing down public lands, which will do nothing to help the deer.

The deer moved to the bottom lands and river bottoms to get away from wolves. So basically they are closing down land that has very few if any deer on it.

[Scruffy]

I don't think anyone on here believes that just the simple closure will solve the issue, but I for one believe it will help. Nobody has an answer for all the other wintering grounds and if we should quit closing them down for the same reasons? We're just giving predators the advantage...

I agree just a closure won't fix all of the issues but it will help.  I have hunted the Winthrop area, all the WDFW land I thought was set aside for conservation has become the liberal's playground.  I know it's public land.....  They go running for exercise, walk their dogs off leash, ride bicycles, and horses all during year and during hunting season while hunters are out hunting.  None of them have a Discover pass hanging from their mirror.  One area is a designated handicap hunting area, not every hunter can go miles from a road but they don't care, they think it's their land.

Those people don't stop just because winter comes, this only bring the cross country skiers, and snowmobile riders out.  Take last winter for example, early deep snow then frozen over.  The deer were doing all they could to stay alive.  They don't need the disruption from people using the land for anything other than conservation.  This year I think is heading the same way with early snows.

Now for those saying it will only help feed the predators.  How many of you made a trip to the area to hunt bear and cougars to help keep them in check?  We can't do much about wolves but you can kill 2 bears and a cougar to help the cause.  Maybe you hunt elsewhere or skip deer season for a year or two and hunt predators instead.  Anything and everything helps except sitting around saying "That won't work" 

[wolfbait]

I don't think anyone on here believes that just the simple closure will solve the issue, but I for one believe it will help. Nobody has an answer for all the other wintering grounds and if we should quit closing them down for the same reasons? We're just giving predators the advantage...

I agree just a closure won't fix all of the issues but it will help.  I have hunted the Winthrop area, all the WDFW land I thought was set aside for conservation has become the liberal's playground.  I know it's public land.....  They go running for exercise, walk their dogs off leash, ride bicycles, and horses all during year and during hunting season while hunters are out hunting.  None of them have a Discover pass hanging from their mirror.  One area is a designated handicap hunting area, not every hunter can go miles from a road but they don't care, they think it's their land.

Those people don't stop just because winter comes, this only bring the cross country skiers, and snowmobile riders out.  Take last winter for example, early deep snow then frozen over.  The deer were doing all they could to stay alive.  They don't need the disruption from people using the land for anything other than conservation.  This year I think is heading the same way with early snows.

Now for those saying it will only help feed the predators.  How many of you made a trip to the area to hunt bear and cougars to help keep them in check?  We can't do much about wolves but you can kill 2 bears and a cougar to help the cause.  Maybe you hunt elsewhere or skip deer season for a year or two and hunt predators instead.  Anything and everything helps except sitting around saying "That won't work" 

They could help the deer by feeding through a bad winter etc., but they won't. So as you can see it isn't about deer, it is about closing public lands. Pretty soon there will be other closures and when they run with a BS story, for a BS reason, we can all look back at where it started and think we should have fought harder to stop it then, kinda like the first wolf pack in 70 years BS.

This closure has never been about the deer.

Carry on,

[Alchase]

I don't think anyone on here believes that just the simple closure will solve the issue, but I for one believe it will help. Nobody has an answer for all the other wintering grounds and if we should quit closing them down for the same reasons? We're just giving predators the advantage...

I agree just a closure won't fix all of the issues but it will help.  I have hunted the Winthrop area, all the WDFW land I thought was set aside for conservation has become the liberal's playground.  I know it's public land.....  They go running for exercise, walk their dogs off leash, ride bicycles, and horses all during year and during hunting season while hunters are out hunting.  None of them have a Discover pass hanging from their mirror.  One area is a designated handicap hunting area, not every hunter can go miles from a road but they don't care, they think it's their land.

Those people don't stop just because winter comes, this only bring the cross country skiers, and snowmobile riders out.  Take last winter for example, early deep snow then frozen over.  The deer were doing all they could to stay alive.  They don't need the disruption from people using the land for anything other than conservation.  This year I think is heading the same way with early snows.

Now for those saying it will only help feed the predators.  How many of you made a trip to the area to hunt bear and cougars to help keep them in check?  We can't do much about wolves but you can kill 2 bears and a cougar to help the cause.  Maybe you hunt elsewhere or skip deer season for a year or two and hunt predators instead.  Anything and everything helps except sitting around saying "That won't work" 

They could help the deer by feeding through a bad winter etc., but they won't. So as you can see it isn't about deer, it is about closing public lands. Pretty soon there will be other closures and when they run with a BS story, for a BS reason, we can all look back at where it started and think we should have fought harder to stop it then, kinda like the first wolf pack in 70 years BS.

This closure has never been about the deer.

Carry on,

 

I would add, it is also clear they are trying to kill hunting and using the decline Deer numbers as their excuse.

[LDennis24]

So again, tons of people on this site were saying the Unlawful Inclosures Act protected the right to access public land and acted like it was part of our constitution on the corner crossing thread but nobody seems to invoke that Act on any closures of public land. Why is that?

[highcountry_hunter]

After years of going to different meetings it came apparent the WDFW were managing this herd for predators and not hunters, I’ve been saying this for years, Fitkin pretty much admitted it with a few statements within this article. I do agree it’s not a bad idea to close access to some winter range for a few months during the dead of winter to guard against harassment from humans but what good will that do when they’re just going to even be more harassed by cats and wolves. Like some have said they’re just providing a buffet for an exploding predator population. The 3 real issues to the Methow heard are in this order….1 predators, 2 predators, 3 predators. The mismanagement of predators are the main issue. Manage predators more aggressively and manage the herd for hunters, sportsman, photographers and even for folks who don’t hunt but enjoy going out and looking at deer instead of managing them to sustain cats, bears and wolves so THEIR numbers prosper and grow would solve the problem for all. I’m not saying to obliterate all cats bears and wolves, just get their numbers back in check where the herd can grow. I remember as a boy how neat it was to see a bear or cougar, they belong just like the deer herd does(except for wolves because I believe they were planted) but management needs to be balanced for all user groups not lopsided as it is now with the focus being put on coddling and nurturing predators. Like I said he pretty much said just that, not in those words but it’s the gist of it. Listening at some meetings in the past going back 25 years or so and reading between the lines, I made that conclusion years ago.

 


Then there's the fact that wolves do a lot of killing in the dark hours, just ask some of the ranchers. I find it sorta funny that people think closing off public lands to protect deer from the public is going to help the deer, when the deer are mostly in town or wintering next to peoples homes.

In the winter if you care to spend some time here scouting you will find the cougars and wolves killing deer in the low lands, and river bottoms, some within a few miles of town. I have driven plowed back roads in the winter 60 plus miles and seen no deer in the foothills, but as you get closer to town you will start seeing deer.

This Summer wolves that "should" have been out in the "closure area" killed 6 goats in broad daylight a few miles from town, when the newbies left for the day to go play.

It is not the people recreating that impact the deer, it's those running WDFW.


I wonder if that article was mostly for people who don't have a clue or are brainwashed to the point of stupid.

The ungulates are very similar around the Colville area. To a newcomer, you’d think this is a sportsman’s paradise since it’s very common to see herds of 30+ elk in the farmers fields on the outskirts of town.
Get 5 miles from town and you better be a dang good hunter to get on them consistently.
Civilization still doesn’t deter the predators completely tho, once a week my wife shows me something off Facebook where someone on the outskirts of town has pictures of wolves or lions in their back field.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hunter399]

After years of going to different meetings it came apparent the WDFW were managing this herd for predators and not hunters, I’ve been saying this for years, Fitkin pretty much admitted it with a few statements within this article. I do agree it’s not a bad idea to close access to some winter range for a few months during the dead of winter to guard against harassment from humans but what good will that do when they’re just going to even be more harassed by cats and wolves. Like some have said they’re just providing a buffet for an exploding predator population. The 3 real issues to the Methow heard are in this order….1 predators, 2 predators, 3 predators. The mismanagement of predators are the main issue. Manage predators more aggressively and manage the herd for hunters, sportsman, photographers and even for folks who don’t hunt but enjoy going out and looking at deer instead of managing them to sustain cats, bears and wolves so THEIR numbers prosper and grow would solve the problem for all. I’m not saying to obliterate all cats bears and wolves, just get their numbers back in check where the herd can grow. I remember as a boy how neat it was to see a bear or cougar, they belong just like the deer herd does(except for wolves because I believe they were planted) but management needs to be balanced for all user groups not lopsided as it is now with the focus being put on coddling and nurturing predators. Like I said he pretty much said just that, not in those words but it’s the gist of it. Listening at some meetings in the past going back 25 years or so and reading between the lines, I made that conclusion years ago.

 


Then there's the fact that wolves do a lot of killing in the dark hours, just ask some of the ranchers. I find it sorta funny that people think closing off public lands to protect deer from the public is going to help the deer, when the deer are mostly in town or wintering next to peoples homes.

In the winter if you care to spend some time here scouting you will find the cougars and wolves killing deer in the low lands, and river bottoms, some within a few miles of town. I have driven plowed back roads in the winter 60 plus miles and seen no deer in the foothills, but as you get closer to town you will start seeing deer.

This Summer wolves that "should" have been out in the "closure area" killed 6 goats in broad daylight a few miles from town, when the newbies left for the day to go play.

It is not the people recreating that impact the deer, it's those running WDFW.


I wonder if that article was mostly for people who don't have a clue or are brainwashed to the point of stupid.

The ungulates are very similar around the Colville area. To a newcomer, you’d think this is a sportsman’s paradise since it’s very common to see herds of 30+ elk in the farmers fields on the outskirts of town.
Get 5 miles from town and you better be a dang good hunter to get on them consistently.
Civilization still doesn’t deter the predators completely tho, once a week my wife shows me something off Facebook where someone on the outskirts of town has pictures of wolves or lions in their back field.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree.
Also will say antlerless harvest for deer in NE has been gone for 4years . Really the only areas it has made a difference is close to town. I'd really be pushing for no antlerless harvest. Cause with the predators,it could take ten years + to rebound.
That's what's happening here.

[mcrawfordaf]

The Kalispell tribe's Cougar Bio, Bart George, was on The Broadside podcast this week and talks quite a bit about how cats in our state, other than those removed for depredation, have very little negative interaction with humans since the outlawing of hound hunting. This has resulted in generations of cats who do not associate humans with threat. So it would seem to me leaving the area open to humans or not, the herds will still be impacted by cats. Wolves seem to have a bigger buffer between them and humans from what I can tell.

Would recommend the listen: https://elliottoutdoorgear.podbean.com/

[timberfaller]

  I got "educated" on Fitkin years ago by a local game warden!! enough said!

[huntnphool]

So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...

 Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.

 And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses?

[mountainman]

So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...

 Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.

 And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses?

Will also add that in the Methow with over 130 miles of groomed ski trails, provides trailways that otherwise would keep deer yarded up and over browsing a small area leading to starvation during heavy snow falls. Yes, deer aren’t too stressed as reported by hikers and skiers. Snowmobiles are a different story.

[LDennis24]

So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...

 Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.

 And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses?

Is it strictly for safety or is it because there is more to eat in people's backyards? The same.thing happened every year when I lived in Mill A near Willard and Trout Lake. The deer come into town in the winter because humans clear the ground for them and there are juniper in the yard to eat and other browse. I don't know, I'm just bringing it up because I've seen the same thing in other areas. And I asked already, if this predator issue is true then isn't it true everywhere else that they close areas down? Do you have the opinion that we should eliminate all wintering areas because we are just feeding predators?

[huntnphool]

So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...

 Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.

 And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses?

Is it strictly for safety or is it because there is more to eat in people's backyards? The same.thing happened every year when I lived in Mill A near Willard and Trout Lake. The deer come into town in the winter because humans clear the ground for them and there are juniper in the yard to eat and other browse. I don't know, I'm just bringing it up because I've seen the same thing in other areas. And I asked already, if this predator issue is true then isn't it true everywhere else that they close areas down? Do you have the opinion that we should eliminate all wintering areas because we are just feeding predators?

 I have no issue with hikers in these areas, “mechanized” equipment should be prohibited in these areas during critical months.

As a kid, I remember signs at gates in the Methow that actually said “Mechanized” vehicles prohibited. They should go back to that IMO.

So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...

 Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.

 And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses?

Is it strictly for safety or is it because there is more to eat in people's backyards? The same.thing happened every year when I lived in Mill A near Willard and Trout Lake. The deer come into town in the winter because humans clear the ground for them and there are juniper in the yard to eat and other browse. I don't know, I'm just bringing it up because I've seen the same thing in other areas. And I asked already, if this predator issue is true then isn't it true everywhere else that they close areas down? Do you have the opinion that we should eliminate all wintering areas because we are just feeding predators?

 You actually prove my point for me with this. If the deer are so stressed by humans, why are they freely walking into towns and back yards in other areas as well?

 Wintering areas are critical IMO, but simply hiking in these areas is not the determining factor hear!

[huntnphool]

So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...

 Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.

 And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses?

Snowmobiles are a different story.

 Agreed, motorcycles, quads, bicycles etc as well.

[baker5150]

So if they don't close it the deer have a better chance of evading wolves? I don't get it...

 Predators do what they can to avoid humans. Remove the humans from the area and predators have a field day.

 And if you believe humans hiking these areas is too much stress for the deer, how do you explain the numbers of deer now seeking safety down in town and around peoples houses?

Snowmobiles are a different story.

 Agreed, motorcycles, quads, bicycles etc as well.

I'd add off-leash dogs as well.

I also don't see how "town deer" are in any way a good thing.  Safety or feed, either way it's not sustainable, nor will it lead to healthy, growing deer herd.
Centralized herds end up inbred and diseased. 

Manage winter range properly, That includes both human, and predator control. 
It's not hard, people just need to put herd health above their own self interests.