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Author Topic: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments  (Read 3912 times)

Offline Wsucoug

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Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« on: December 28, 2023, 02:19:43 PM »
Has anyone here reached out to the game departments from Idaho, Wyoming, Nevada, New Mexico, Montana, ect. and asked for data and resources supporting the harvest and management of these two species. These departments and their biologist should have access to quality/reputable resources that can be cited for the continued management of predators through hunting.

My thinking here is that through a few phone calls we should be able to gather quality data that supports the continued harvest of predators via hunting seasons. If we can organize the data we should be able to forward it onto the commission and our senators; which is data that could not be ignored and if is; it can be documented.

Such questions that could be asked:

Has hunting reduced healthy populations of these predators? Any papers or studies that can be cited?
Has hunting ever lead to an increase of conflicts between the general population and these predators? Again papers/studys?
Has a decrease in hunting of the predators lead to an increase in predator populations and in turn lead to a decrease ungulate population?
Are predator populations and ungulate populations correlated?

We can not settle for verbal answers to these questions, no matter how convincing the person sounds on the other line. We need papers/documents/ and studies.   

Please feel free to add additional questions to this list and please refrain from contributing your opinion no matter how obvious they may be.


Offline KFhunter

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2023, 04:19:57 PM »
WDFW has provided industry standard studies to the comission who then blow it off and do what they want anyways. 

All of these studies are fairly standard throughout game agencies.  the comission is asking for something novel, and out of budgetary constraints, to put the burden on WDFW bio's. 

Its impossible to "please" the comission, and they know it, it's by design. 

Offline Cougartail

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2023, 04:28:11 PM »
WDFW has provided industry standard studies to the comission who then blow it off and do what they want anyways. 

All of these studies are fairly standard throughout game agencies.  the comission is asking for something novel, and out of budgetary constraints, to put the burden on WDFW bio's. 

Its impossible to "please" the comission, and they know it, it's by design.

 :yeah: Pure politics.
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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2023, 05:09:54 PM »
Washington state has always done the opposite of everybody else. Hence the lower game populations and crappy management of our resources. And yes there is proof that the decrease in hunting methods especially bears and mountain lions have proven arise in the predator population. That is how we got the lengthy seasons that we have and at one time we also had the extra season for bears. Back when hounds were allowed our seasons were shorter but the predator population was controlled. Allowing the uninformed public to control our hunting methods was a giant step in the depletion of our deer and elk population. Also more human interactions with these animals have happened since the hound seasons were deemed illegal.

Offline MADMAX

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2023, 05:17:53 PM »
Washington state has always done the opposite of everybody else. Hence the lower game populations and crappy management of our resources. And yes there is proof that the decrease in hunting methods especially bears and mountain lions have proven arise in the predator population. That is how we got the lengthy seasons that we have and at one time we also had the extra season for bears. Back when hounds were allowed our seasons were shorter but the predator population was controlled. Allowing the uninformed public to control our hunting methods was a giant step in the depletion of our deer and elk population. Also more human interactions with these animals have happened since the hound seasons were deemed illegal.

 :yeah:

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Offline Wsucoug

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2023, 06:59:55 PM »
I am not going to argue with any of this. I agree with all of it. However, I rarely see references to studies used on this forum. I know there are many people here that are actively sending out letters advocating for proper management of our game species. It would be nice if there are studies that can be referenced especially when the letters are sent to political figures outside the agency. Its always easier to dismiss a letter as hearsay when it lacks proper supporting evidence.

This is just me thinking outload. But it would be nice if we where constantly collecting and organizing our thoughts around studies that people could then use when they want to send off their latest rant to those that they feel need to be informed. It no quick work for sure, but its just a thought.

Offline HUNTIN4SIX

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2023, 07:24:14 PM »
I am not going to argue with any of this. I agree with all of it. However, I rarely see references to studies used on this forum. I know there are many people here that are actively sending out letters advocating for proper management of our game species. It would be nice if there are studies that can be referenced especially when the letters are sent to political figures outside the agency. Its always easier to dismiss a letter as hearsay when it lacks proper supporting evidence.

This is just me thinking outload. But it would be nice if we where constantly collecting and organizing our thoughts around studies that people could then use when they want to send off their latest rant to those that they feel need to be informed. It no quick work for sure, but its just a thought.

This approach is definately taking the high road and an attempt to take out opinions.
However, After being employed by this agency I will assure you you won't get your desired info or evidence.  Many opinions (including my own) on here come from true life experiences in dealing with this Agency and being out among our wildlife.  Most Bio's that don't fit the agenda are either....Not hired or weeded out quickly.  I don't think there is the amount of studies/research one might think :dunno:

Offline hunter399

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2023, 12:32:24 AM »
I am not going to argue with any of this. I agree with all of it. However, I rarely see references to studies used on this forum. I know there are many people here that are actively sending out letters advocating for proper management of our game species. It would be nice if there are studies that can be referenced especially when the letters are sent to political figures outside the agency. Its always easier to dismiss a letter as hearsay when it lacks proper supporting evidence.

This is just me thinking outload. But it would be nice if we where constantly collecting and organizing our thoughts around studies that people could then use when they want to send off their latest rant to those that they feel need to be informed. It no quick work for sure, but its just a thought.

This approach is definately taking the high road and an attempt to take out opinions.
However, After being employed by this agency I will assure you you won't get your desired info or evidence.  Many opinions (including my own) on here come from true life experiences in dealing with this Agency and being out among our wildlife.  Most Bio's that don't fit the agenda are either....Not hired or weeded out quickly.  I don't think there is the amount of studies/research one might think :dunno:.
The biggest problem is finding a study that supports hunting or management. Most these study's and research are done by the same people that want to end predator hunting.
Pretty much biased.
Might look into,harvest reports.
Most species are not considered "unsustainable".
Till there is a decline in harvest.
You don't have an increase in harvest,then say it's unsustainable.
That's not how it works. Any good bio can tell ya that.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2023, 01:01:01 AM by hunter399 »

Offline Wsucoug

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2023, 10:07:18 AM »
This is why started the thread. There are 50 states with 50 game departments.  I figured there is a collection of data in some of these departments that would be nice to have and that hunters could reference when they trying advocate for proper management. It would take a group effort to start gathering and organizing such information, but I am betting there is quite a bit out there.
 

Offline Kmino

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2023, 10:55:54 AM »
Wsucoug,

This is a tremendous thread, and I'm very glad you've made it. You are right. Statements not backed by studies are simply that; they lack substance and are as bad as the commission's statements.

I just got accepted to the Environmental Science and Terrestrial Resource Management major in SEFS at UW and I am passionate about studying these topics. I will return to this thread as I come across resources and literature.

Thank you for taking the initiative here. I'll support how I can when my studies allow.

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2023, 11:06:05 AM »
Wsucoug,

This is a tremendous thread, and I'm very glad you've made it. You are right. Statements not backed by studies are simply that; they lack substance and are as bad as the commission's statements.

I just got accepted to the Environmental Science and Terrestrial Resource Management major in SEFS at UW and I am passionate about studying these topics. I will return to this thread as I come across resources and literature.

Thank you for taking the initiative here. I'll support how I can when my studies allow.

We need more hunters in this line of work, my hunting daughter is in similar studies at WSU

Like I told her, be careful exploring outside of the company lines, these professors control your grades, and thus your future.  One of my daughters’ favorite professors is a radical liberal, but he’s very fair although he writes comments like “I don’t agree with any of this” on her papers, but grades A+ anyways.  They aren’t all so fair, but you’ll easily identify them.   

Offline fireweed

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Offline bigmacc

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2024, 06:41:33 PM »

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2024, 05:19:06 AM »
You aren't going to want to look at Robert Wielgus studies then
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Offline templar021

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2024, 08:12:36 PM »
It's very hard to get population estimates for bear and cougar. Wolves seem to be more closely monitored. If you look at idaho wolf harvest vs population, it seems they Take a big chunk of the population every year, yet the population grows. Same thing for cougar in Oregon
 Bear and cougar harvest in the oregon blues is much greater than in WA blues, and OR also has a much healthier elk herd. Harvest data is available on the web. Oregon and Idaho data seems to indicate predators can withstand a heavy harvest year in and year out.

Offline hunter399

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2024, 10:03:05 AM »
Idaho harvest is double Washington every year.
I looked before this thread was started.
But since they use dogs ,they can target males,they can control harvest of females better.
Just like any species,it's all about female,when it comes to sustainable.

With that said,I consider Eastern Washington similar to Idaho in habitat and what not .
Definitely enough cats,our harvest isn't even close to Idaho.

Like said in a few post , predator including coyotes can take decent harvest from year to year.
Rebound very quick as long as prey or food is on the table.

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2024, 01:18:26 AM »
ID has a great long term study on integrated predator pre relationships. I've posted it before. Very applicable to eastern wa. I've been told that other states studies cannot be used in court in this state.
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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2024, 09:15:20 AM »
ID has a great long term study on integrated predator pre relationships. I've posted it before. Very applicable to eastern wa. I've been told that other states studies cannot be used in court in this state.

I like the idea of other state studies being left out. I would be in favor of only WA residents being able to comment at Commission meeting too.

In fact I don’t think as far as game management is concerned only WA residents wishes should be considered.
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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2024, 11:48:34 AM »
ID has a great long term study on integrated predator pre relationships. I've posted it before. Very applicable to eastern wa. I've been told that other states studies cannot be used in court in this state.

I like the idea of other state studies being left out. I would be in favor of only WA residents being able to comment at Commission meeting too.

In fact I don’t think as far as game management is concerned only WA residents wishes should be considered.

The comission seems to make decisions using information/studies from other states. At least large parts of ID studies sample the same ecosystem divided by an arbitrary line.  :twocents:
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Offline idaho guy

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2024, 02:22:07 PM »
ID has a great long term study on integrated predator pre relationships. I've posted it before. Very applicable to eastern wa. I've been told that other states studies cannot be used in court in this state.



Idaho also did a study a few years ago in the couer d alene river drainage on elk mortality. Greatest number of elk kills were lions and many think the wolves are constantly running cats off their kills. leading to lions having to kill more often. That would be an excellent study to compare with eastern Washington. Not a huge difference outside of an imaginary line. Its really easy to google the study. The season(with dogs) and bag limit on lions has been extended till the end of june with 2 otc tags. The fact we still have a healthy population of cats would be a good argument against Washingtons ridiculously limited season.

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2024, 08:53:44 AM »
ID has a great long term study on integrated predator pre relationships. I've posted it before. Very applicable to eastern wa. I've been told that other states studies cannot be used in court in this state.



Idaho also did a study a few years ago in the couer d alene river drainage on elk mortality. Greatest number of elk kills were lions and many think the wolves are constantly running cats off their kills. leading to lions having to kill more often. That would be an excellent study to compare with eastern Washington. Not a huge difference outside of an imaginary line. Its really easy to google the study. The season(with dogs) and bag limit on lions has been extended till the end of june with 2 otc tags. The fact we still have a healthy population of cats would be a good argument against Washingtons ridiculously limited season.

 :yeah:  Lion season is open August 30-June 1, hunters may buy two tags over the counter. Only closed July 1-Aug 29 and hounds restricted Oct 10-29 during rifle elk season.

Bear is open two months in Spring and in the Fall, hunters may buy two tags over the counter, bait and hounds legal, hounds restricted during rifle elk season.
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Offline Sunbkpk

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2024, 01:10:03 PM »
Wsucoug,

This is a tremendous thread, and I'm very glad you've made it. You are right. Statements not backed by studies are simply that; they lack substance and are as bad as the commission's statements.

I just got accepted to the Environmental Science and Terrestrial Resource Management major in SEFS at UW and I am passionate about studying these topics. I will return to this thread as I come across resources and literature.

Thank you for taking the initiative here. I'll support how I can when my studies allow.
A Meta study of existing studies data, herd data and harvest data, with a statistical model built on the data would be very interesting. Model could capture herd composition of young, adult females and males and predict how much of the variation is captured with data for harvest, predation, and environment. Could then be modified for differences state to state.

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2024, 07:07:10 PM »
Go to you tube search predator prey WDFW there's a video on there study. There's mention of why they won't use other states studies here in Wa.
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Re: Cougar/Bear Studies from Other Game Departments
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2024, 07:18:08 PM »
Go to you tube search predator prey WDFW there's a video on there study. There's mention of why they won't use other states studies here in Wa.
Posted recently on an ongoing mtn lion study being conducted in Utah (lion journey) Very involved study and they are quite forthcoming with their on going results.  Pretty sure what they are finding would be useful in this state if they would use it.
 

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