1x scopes vs open sights

[brew]

How primitive are 209 primers ?

[Mtnwalker]

How primitive are 209 primers ?

Exactly. Things have already gone too far. What's the point of having a separate season if we continue to blur the line between a muzz and a rifle?

The common theme with these threads always boils down to the same thing. Those that are for it seem to have their own best interest in mind, while those against it generally seem to have the best interest of the resource in mind.

[Karl Blanchard]

How primitive are 209 primers ?

I'd change it back to side locks if I could. Then maybe we could get some better seasons back. Doubtful though considering wdfw is anti harvest these days 

[jrebel]

How primitive are 209 primers ?

Exactly. Things have already gone too far. What's the point of having a separate season if we continue to blur the line between a muzz and a rifle?

The common theme with these threads always boils down to the same thing. Those that are for it seem to have their own best interest in mind, while those against it generally seem to have the best interest of the resource in mind.

That's a ridiculous statement.  You are taking a stance and making the argument that anyone that doesn't agree with your stance, doesn't care about the resource.  You really need to check your ego at the door and have an open honest debate.  Maybe we should go back to trap door single shot rifles and lever actions with open sights, modern rifles are way to advanced....anyone that disagrees with me clearly just wants to rape and pillage the land of it's natural resources.      Maybe we outlaw modern clothing while we are at it...buckskins and loin cloths is the only thing that makes you a real hunter that cares about the resource.   

[Mtnwalker]

How primitive are 209 primers ?

Exactly. Things have already gone too far. What's the point of having a separate season if we continue to blur the line between a muzz and a rifle?

The common theme with these threads always boils down to the same thing. Those that are for it seem to have their own best interest in mind, while those against it generally seem to have the best interest of the resource in mind.

That's a ridiculous statement.  You are taking a stance and making the argument that anyone that doesn't agree with your stance, doesn't care about the resource.  You really need to check your ego at the door and have an open honest debate.  Maybe we should go back to trap door single shot rifles and lever actions with open sights, modern rifles are way to advanced....anyone that disagrees with me clearly just wants to rape and pillage the land of it's natural resources.      Maybe we outlaw modern clothing while we are at it...buckskins and loin cloths is the only thing that makes you a real hunter that cares about the resource.   

Nope I was actually just skimming back over all the comments and making an observation. Nearly all of the "for" comments are "yep, MY eyes aren't what they used to be" "It would really help ME in low light" "I can shoot 300 yards with my 1x!" and so on.

Most of the against comments have more to do with the spirit of primitive weapons seasons, adding further harvest efficacy to a weapon that's supposed to be challenging, and the like.

[Cougeyes]

The proposed rationale is that most requests for 1x scopes are coming from seniors whose eyesight has deteriorated. Why not only allow 1x for seniors and everyone else has to use open sights. I wouldn't have an issue with that.

[Ghost Hunter]

How primitive are 209 primers ?

Exactly. Things have already gone too far. What's the point of having a separate season if we continue to blur the line between a muzz and a rifle?

The common theme with these threads always boils down to the same thing. Those that are for it seem to have their own best interest in mind, while those against it generally seem to have the best interest of the resource in mind.

That's a ridiculous statement.  You are taking a stance and making the argument that anyone that doesn't agree with your stance, doesn't care about the resource.  You really need to check your ego at the door and have an open honest debate.  Maybe we should go back to trap door single shot rifles and lever actions with open sights, modern rifles are way to advanced....anyone that disagrees with me clearly just wants to rape and pillage the land of it's natural resources.      Maybe we outlaw modern clothing while we are at it...buckskins and loin cloths is the only thing that makes you a real hunter that cares about the resource.   

Nope I was actually just skimming back over all the comments and making an observation. Nearly all of the "for" comments are "yep, MY eyes aren't what they used to be" "It would really help ME in low light" "I can shoot 300 yards with my 1x!" and so on.

Most of the against comments have more to do with the spirit of primitive weapons seasons, adding further harvest efficacy to a weapon that's supposed to be challenging, and the like.

It appears the department doesn't have your perspective on harvest impact.

WAC 220-414-060  Muzzleloading firearms.
The purpose of this proposal is to amend WAC language to allow the use of one-power (aka “1x”) scopes on muzzleloading
firearms. Commercial availability of one-power scopes is low outside of the “red dot” scope category. Red dots sights are
non-magnifying (i.e., 1x) battery-powered optics that function by concentrating and reflecting a light (typically red) from within
the scope housing onto the user’s eye. Red dot scopes do not project any light, laser, or other emission toward the target.
Because red dot scopes are battery powered, this proposal also amends WAC language to permit electronic aiming devices
on muzzleloading equipment if those devices are red dot or similar electronically powered devices that do not exceed one
power magnification. The Department does not anticipate significant impacts to hunter success rates because one power
scopes do not magnify the target or enhance the intrinsic capabilities of muzzleloading firearms.   

[pd]

The previous thread on this topic was my absolute favorite ever on this website!

I see that a lot of you guys haven't conceded yet.   

[Mtnwalker]

How primitive are 209 primers ?

Exactly. Things have already gone too far. What's the point of having a separate season if we continue to blur the line between a muzz and a rifle?

The common theme with these threads always boils down to the same thing. Those that are for it seem to have their own best interest in mind, while those against it generally seem to have the best interest of the resource in mind.

That's a ridiculous statement.  You are taking a stance and making the argument that anyone that doesn't agree with your stance, doesn't care about the resource.  You really need to check your ego at the door and have an open honest debate.  Maybe we should go back to trap door single shot rifles and lever actions with open sights, modern rifles are way to advanced....anyone that disagrees with me clearly just wants to rape and pillage the land of it's natural resources.      Maybe we outlaw modern clothing while we are at it...buckskins and loin cloths is the only thing that makes you a real hunter that cares about the resource.   

Nope I was actually just skimming back over all the comments and making an observation. Nearly all of the "for" comments are "yep, MY eyes aren't what they used to be" "It would really help ME in low light" "I can shoot 300 yards with my 1x!" and so on.

Most of the against comments have more to do with the spirit of primitive weapons seasons, adding further harvest efficacy to a weapon that's supposed to be challenging, and the like.

It appears the department doesn't have your perspective on harvest impact.

WAC 220-414-060  Muzzleloading firearms.
The purpose of this proposal is to amend WAC language to allow the use of one-power (aka “1x”) scopes on muzzleloading
firearms. Commercial availability of one-power scopes is low outside of the “red dot” scope category. Red dots sights are
non-magnifying (i.e., 1x) battery-powered optics that function by concentrating and reflecting a light (typically red) from within
the scope housing onto the user’s eye. Red dot scopes do not project any light, laser, or other emission toward the target.
Because red dot scopes are battery powered, this proposal also amends WAC language to permit electronic aiming devices
on muzzleloading equipment if those devices are red dot or similar electronically powered devices that do not exceed one
power magnification. The Department does not anticipate significant impacts to hunter success rates because one power
scopes do not magnify the target or enhance the intrinsic capabilities of muzzleloading firearms.

That's the same WDFW that 99% of the people on this site are constantly bashing for being completely inept and full of crap, right?

1x scopes aren't going to be a make it or break it, but it all adds up. I guess we can re-visit this when they're proposing magnified scopes because 1x are hard to find and people are still complaining.

[jrebel]

 

10% of the hunters kill 90% of the game (old saying but you get the point).  1x scopes are not going to change harvest number by any appreciable amount. 

I hear the exact opposite.....the folks that don't want to add this are being selfish, "It's going to shift more hunters to muzzleloader season", "It's going to my my muzzy draw odds worse", etc. etc. etc......They don't care about other hunters, they just care about their draw odds and the number of folks that my shift from rifle to muzzy. 

I have a 1x scope on and have shot it on a muzzy.....for those saying it is 300 or more yard muzzy at that point, I ask you do prove it.  Come and shoot a 10 shot 2 moa group at 300 yards.  There may be a few that can achieve this, the vast majority cannot.  As has been stated, it offers those with poor(er) eyesight the ability to shoot muzzy's again.  It may add a few minutes at dawn and dusk to the hunting day.  That's about it.....

[boneaddict]

I suppose if my old man had a red dot scope on the top of his homemade front stuffer he could have gotten himself one more bull.  Instead, he chose not to try the shot just before shooting light ended.   In his mind he made a good decision by not taking the shot and didnt want for more, it was a good hunt.       

[James]

You guys need to get over the "what makes a primitive weapon" thing. It's a silly moral argument where there is no right answer.

It's all about hunter numbers and success.  I really think the best approach with muzzys is allow them to be relatively reliable (which is why I am pro 209 primers) single shot rifles that have limited range.  The most elegant way to limit range without enforcing silly rules or unreliable arms is to use privative sights.

One of the main reasons I muzzy hunt is for the lack of crowds, will allowing red dots bring in more hunters and allow some more success, sure.  Is it enough to make a sizeable impact? No way to know, but I don't think it's worth tempting fate. I like muzzy season, I don't want to see it ruined.

The only thing I would be ok with is allow 65 and older to use modern scopes, but I am so afraid of the slippery slope, even that makes me nervous.

[boneaddict]

Would it be tempting at all to you if you could have an extra week or two of hunting if it was Trad muzzy only. (iron site front stuffer, flint or caps, no sabot, whatever)? or have areas or hunts dedicated to Trad.   Maybe double the bull permits avaialable.....

[HntnFsh]

How primitive are 209 primers ?

The common theme with these threads always boils down to the same thing. Those that are for it seem to have their own best interest in mind, while those against it generally seem to have the best interest of the resource in mind.

You mean its just like the guys that say lock the gates. Make it walk in only. etc.

Theres two sides to everything.

[James]

Would it be tempting at all to you if you could have an extra week or two of hunting if it was Trad muzzy only. (iron site front stuffer, flint or caps, no sabot, whatever)? or have areas or hunts dedicated to Trad.   Maybe double the bull permits avaialable.....

THIS IS THE DISCUSSION WE SHOULD BE HAVING!

It has nothing to do with what a moral musket is, but harvest vs opportunity.