1x scopes vs open sights

[boneaddict]

It’s a difficult conversation to be had.   Elitist is usually the first card dropped.  Then infighting, fodder for the antis.   Hunters as a whole seem to be gear junkies at heart, next best….

In the spirit of things, opportunity was meant for a muzzy season outside of modern. Less crowds, better weather, arguably best timing for elk etc.   a little sacrifice meant you could get these things.   Next thing you know, a muzzy is practically as high tech as a modern rifle.   (Weather, eyesight, powder, loads etc,).
First gripe, why one week season, second gripe pumpkin patch.   Multi season tags didn’t help. 

If it was a true primitive weapon, then I believe much of that opportunity of a longer season with less folks,  might be had.    But yeah, that conversation is a tough one.   I see it with archery as well. 

[Bullkllr]

Would it be tempting at all to you if you could have an extra week or two of hunting if it was Trad muzzy only. (iron site front stuffer, flint or caps, no sabot, whatever)? or have areas or hunts dedicated to Trad.   Maybe double the bull permits avaialable.....

THIS IS THE DISCUSSION WE SHOULD BE HAVING!

It has nothing to do with what a moral musket is, but harvest vs opportunity.

In the comments someone suggested that as what is defined as primitive is expanded and efficiency incrementally increases that inevitably will result in shorter season, draw only, etc creating self-inflicted reduction of opportunity for all. Hard to argue that's not the case, but I see both sides of the issue.

[raydog]

209s greatly increased elk harvest rates for Muzzys and 1x/red dots will most definitely increase harvest as well. Plus apparently there will be guys popping off 300+ yard shots thinking their Muzzys still got enough beans left to kill an elk

I think that for the folks struggling to see the sights due to age/injury, there could be an easier process for filing for exemption.

[raydog]

Make muzzleloader Mel Gibson cool again

[steeleywhopper]

Who cares! let's work with each other to fight the WDFW instead of fighting each other and letting the Anti's of the WDFW beat us down!!!!!!!
Divided we fall!

[HntnFsh]

209s greatly increased elk harvest rates for Muzzys

Can you show me some info to back that up. I dont believe it. I could see a small increase. But greatly seems like a stretch!

[boneaddict]

Who cares! let's work with each other to fight the WDFW instead of fighting each other and letting the Anti's of the WDFW beat us down!!!!!!!
Divided we fall!

Kumbaya my lord Kumbaya   (my spelling is as good as me singing.      )

[huntnnw]

New from leupold. Guys shooting 500 yards with this red dot 1x

[Ronquillo08]

New from leupold. Guys shooting 500 yards with this red dot 1x

Is there a video, are they shooting from the vice pictured, and are they dialing in a greater than 1X? Since this is from Leopold it is most likely a champion shooter.

[Karl Blanchard]

New from leupold. Guys shooting 500 yards with this red dot 1x

Is there a video, are they shooting from the vice pictured, and are they dialing in a greater than 1X? Since this is from Leopold it is most likely a champion shooter.

It's a 1x scope. Likely made due to UT moving to 1x scopes only.  Don't need to be a champion shooter to shoot a modern muzzy that distance. Just need a good aiming device and accurate dope. 

[raydog]

209s greatly increased elk harvest rates for Muzzys

Can you show me some info to back that up. I dont believe it. I could see a small increase. But greatly seems like a stretch!

From 2013-2017 the average total number of elk killed in the district (multiple gmus) I hunt was 92. From 2018-2022 increased to an average of 135 elk. This is per the harvest data on the WDFW website. Admittedly, I take these with a grain of salt, because I believe they opened up more seasons for muzzy sometime in the middle of those years. I have personally seen a large increase in success in my party, people who I talk with and a lot more bulls riding through town in people's trucks.

This is in one of the most popular areas for elk in Western WA.

[Ronquillo08]

New from leupold. Guys shooting 500 yards with this red dot 1x

Is there a video, are they shooting from the vice pictured, and are they dialing in a greater than 1X? Since this is from Leopold it is most likely a champion shooter.

It's a 1x scope. Likely made due to UT moving to 1x scopes only.  Don't need to be a champion shooter to shoot a modern muzzy that distance. Just need a good aiming device and accurate dope.

Just my general questions thanks, I don't have a dog in this fight. I dont hunt during muzzy.

[Mtnwalker]

Modern muzzies like the Paramounts are legit 400 yard+ rifles. The only limiting factor left is the aiming device. Add in the ability to dial for distance and aim with a crosshair and you will see success rates increase, plain and simple. Since WDFW seems convinced that we don't have enough elk, something will eventually give to compensate for the additional success. But I've beat this horse to death and then some. Carry on

[jrebel]

209s greatly increased elk harvest rates for Muzzys

Can you show me some info to back that up. I dont believe it. I could see a small increase. But greatly seems like a stretch!

From 2013-2017 the average total number of elk killed in the district (multiple gmus) I hunt was 92. From 2018-2022 increased to an average of 135 elk. This is per the harvest data on the WDFW website. Admittedly, I take these with a grain of salt, because I believe they opened up more seasons for muzzy sometime in the middle of those years. I have personally seen a large increase in success in my party, people who I talk with and a lot more bulls riding through town in people's trucks.

This is in one of the most popular areas for elk in Western WA.

Lets assume this increase is apples to apples.....your telling me the ignition system is what increased success???  Man, that is a hard one to bite off on.  What other factors?  What is the success rate in those same date ranges (hunters / days hunted to kills %).  Did those percentages drop in other categories?  Elk herd numbers?  Permit given out?  etc. etc. etc.  A change from musket cap to 209 is very negligible when it come to overall scheme of things.....I just don't believe the "209" primer is the cause for those increases. 

That would imply that non 209 primer muzzy's had an almost 40% fail to fire / hang fire, causing less kills.  I have never had a musket fail to ignite.  The ignition source doesn't increase your range....though it could be argued that the powder (blackhorn 209) did increase velocities i.e. range.  A 209 primer with ff powder / equivalent really doesn't add much to the experience other than piece of mind for reliable ignition.   

[raydog]

209s greatly increased elk harvest rates for Muzzys

Can you show me some info to back that up. I dont believe it. I could see a small increase. But greatly seems like a stretch!

From 2013-2017 the average total number of elk killed in the district (multiple gmus) I hunt was 92. From 2018-2022 increased to an average of 135 elk. This is per the harvest data on the WDFW website. Admittedly, I take these with a grain of salt, because I believe they opened up more seasons for muzzy sometime in the middle of those years. I have personally seen a large increase in success in my party, people who I talk with and a lot more bulls riding through town in people's trucks.

This is in one of the most popular areas for elk in Western WA.

Lets assume this increase is apples to apples.....your telling me the ignition system is what increased success???  Man, that is a hard one to bite off on.  What other factors?  What is the success rate in those same date ranges (hunters / days hunted to kills %).  Did those percentages drop in other categories?  Elk herd numbers?  Permit given out?  etc. etc. etc.  A change from musket cap to 209 is very negligible when it come to overall scheme of things.....I just don't believe the "209" primer is the cause for those increases. 

That would imply that non 209 primer muzzy's had an almost 40% fail to fire / hang fire, causing less kills.  I have never had a musket fail to ignite.  The ignition source doesn't increase your range....though it could be argued that the powder (blackhorn 209) did increase velocities i.e. range.  A 209 primer with ff powder / equivalent really doesn't add much to the experience other than piece of mind for reliable ignition.

No, I would say that the increase in reliability of a muzzy increased the hunter numbers in the units. Which increases total harvest. Muzzy season has gotten extremely popular because it's easier than it used to be. Do you hunt western elk? Rain is a real issue with musket caps and open ignition. My first bull I killed was with my buddy's gun. Mine wouldn't fire with the musket cap