Just playing [emoji35]

[2MANY]

Over the edge??

[Mudman]

We just spent 12 days in Montana Idaho.  By Yellowstone.  Spent 400 miles driving mnt in sxs.  I speak of this because we saw plenty game and cattle and elk and antelope etc.  Most anmals were seen on leased ranch land and not in the huge red rock wildlife preserve.  Just saying.  Elk sure love those natural developed springs for cattle too!  I see no issues there.  I call BS in most situations of this weak argument.  Exceptions excluded of course as Surely there are issues needing better management but we eat beef in USA.  Cant have it both ways.

[Rainier10]

Over the edge??

Living on the Westside will push you over the edge.

That isn’t where the saying came from but it is true.

[Feathernfurr]

1 - “Grazing cattle push those ungulates off of prime habitat."
This statement is BS.

"I can assume from the @2MANY response having a western Washington address decreases a persons street cred and diminishes their opinion."
You can assume.
In some situations this may also be true.

2 - "In states with harsh winters, that habitat is vital to population growth/sustainment."
Actually during harsh winters the wild animals migrate down to the private land and eat the farmers grass.
BLM grazing usually takes place at the higher elevations far above the harsh winter forage.

3 - "I’d gladly pay the monthly fees equivalent to the allotments fees in my elk spots to keep cattle off of them."
Your elk spots? I thought this was public ground.

While some areas may be over grazed(especially in eastern WA), ALL of the BLM ground I'm familiar with certainly isn't.

Still waiting for you to back up any singular response you’ve made.
1 - You’re right, I’m absolutely making this up. I definitely didn’t arrive at this conclusion from years of running cameras and scouting areas and watching cowboys bring in truck loads of cows and push out 100+ elk herds from the area into lesser quality habitat. Elk love competing for resources.

2 - I’m going to bet you’ve never lived within 10 minutes of a major wintering ground. I’ve ridden by one everyday for a decade. I’ve watched cattle and sheep graze it all summer/fall in the valley on blm. Then watching 1000’s of deer, elk, and moose migrate into it. I’ve also walked it and counted dozens of dead animals in the spring when it opens. In the places I’ve lived (which have millions of acres of blm land) I’ve seen livestock grazing from 3k ft all the way to 7k ft.

3 - Semantics. Don’t be silly. “My” elk spots are shared with a lot of other hunters, we enjoy catching up in the woods every season. All of us get burned by the cattle once they’re brought in(generally just before or right after the start of the season). Oddly enough this area is loaded with grizzly, wolves, and lions. We never find dead cattle from predation.


I’ll just throw out some loose facts as well.
- 80-90% of the United States beef is owned by 4 major corporations. (I’ve found that much of the cattle in the areas I hunt is owned by wealthy Californians, and operated by South American cowboys on work visas)
- ~20% of the United States beef production is exported. That 20% is offset by imported beef from Brazil.
- I haven’t seen a ribeye worth a turd in grocery stores since Covid, and what I have seen has been far too expensive. Not a fact, but I’d like to see someone dispute it 😂

[PsoasHunter]

Wow, thanks for the education. Feathernfurr and Rainier10, I appreciate your thoughtful comments and data and observations to back it up. I especially agree that blanket statements never apply to complex problems. But thoughtful discussions are so much more work on the internet, so good on you for making the effort.

[2MANY]

Furfeather...You could not be more wrong on your assumptions about me. Kinda funny.

That being said the part of the west I frequent the cowboys ride horses and push their herds of cattle from mountain top to the ranch. Right down the highway if needed as a family and usually with the help of some neighbors. Most get sold and then shipped in cattle trucks the first week of November.
Trucks, trailers, cowboys from South America must be a new solution that I'm proud I'm not a part of.

Most all hat no cow types are against public grazing and it's only a matter of time until the west becomes exactly what you described. When it happens you won't need to worry about elk hunting. You'll be feeding your family just like they do in Europe.

[2MANY]

"We never find dead cattle from predation."

Nope.
The wolves eat the calves.

Sounds like you should be finding a better spot to elk hunt. The cows in your sector will be showing up every year and time hunting is a precious commodity.

[Mudman]

   Years of educatin and experience can lead some down the wrong road it seems.  LIVING that life is the true education.  Winter feed has 0 to do with summer grazing.  Grass grows to seed, falls over and isnt nutritous in feb.  Or when it has 2ft of snow on it.  Migration to lower elevations occupied by houses of liberals griping about things is where its at.

[Feathernfurr]

Funny, I’d argue the only person here that’s made assumptions about people is you.  Somehow my location makes me an uneducated liberal?


Mudman. Years of education and experience can lead people down the wrong path yet living that life is true education. Weird, experience and living that life sound like they’re the same thing. You’re right, winter forage and summer forage do change. As do ungulates gut microbes to be able to digest different foods to survive. I’ve lived and experienced places with true harsh winters, nothing Washington’s winters can hold a flame to. Winter forage in that area is just about anything they can find to survive. I can assure you the place where I’ve experienced these things the lower elevations aren’t occupied by liberals. The lower elevations aren’t even occupied by houses.


I’m sure both of your experiences are valuable and true. I also think they’re likely specific to smaller operations. But as I said previously, 80-90% of the countries beef production is owned by 4 corporations. That’s not small family operations. But, I’ll stand by my point. I’ve watched prime elk habitat slowly dwindle as cattle get shipped in every year, likely by bigger operations. I’ve also watched cattle illegally grazed by family operations and destroy prime deer and upland habitat. Hundreds of acres of it.

[Alan K]

I'm NOT an expert on grazing, but do have a career in forestry...

Why am I not surprised to hear that grazing on federal lands is mismanaged? Sounds similar to how our federal forests are.

I suspect just as in forestry where proper management lies somewhere in the middle between the no-touch federal forests and the 35 year rotation ages of investment group owned industrial lands, proper grazing is somewhere between the continual year after year grazing the same area and cattle free public lands. 

It's not all or nothing, or at least shouldn't be.

[2MANY]

Ranchers PAY the government to have their cows on the BLM range while others GET PAID to wander around and stare at the ground.

Is it the cow or the government employee that's taking advantage of the American taxpayer and our public lands?

Worried about elk?
Stay off the winter range. Even when the government says it's open. Elk are most vulnerable after a harsh winter during this period. Most can't do it though because the drive to get that shed is just toooo great.

Winter range?
Spent an entire winter 8 miles behind a locked gate in the federal winter range. Our ranch IS the winter range.
I understand the circle of life.

Books are great for learning, artificial intelligence spits out "facts", Some towns are great for skiing, Subaru is great on gas milage, and long hair saves on barber shop bills.

[Feathernfurr]

$1.35 an animal unit. You must really be subsidizing the government billions of dollars.

Interesting. Some of us are law abiding citizens and don’t touch winter range until after May 1st. Long after animals have moved off back on the journey to their summer range.

Oh you spent a singular winter behind winter range. That’s cute. You’re a tourist. Some of us have lived amongst it for years, you know, residents.

I’m sure maybe your family runs a great operation, rotates cattle regularly, and is the savior of the land. Talk to your fellow cattleman and get them on board with the same level of respect for the land.

[2MANY]

Fact:
That's $1.35 an "animal unit" (which is actually based on cow/calf pairs) more than you contribute.

Fact:
You have no skin in the game other than managing grass you don't own.

Fact:
The government does a crappy job of managing the grazing allotments.

Fact:
Shoot me a PM.
I'm happy to continue this however but not super interested in crossing some line on the forum.


How old were you when they introduced the wolves in the Rockies?

[Feathernfurr]

You couldn’t have played into that any more perfectly. You want to sit here and bully people, yet the second someone gives you a taste of your own medicine you get your hackles up.

Fact: I’m aware of what an animal unit is. Maybe more than I contribute, maybe not. You also get to make money off that deal. I don’t.

Fact: I do have skin in the game, my life revolves around conservation and hunting. I own that grass as much as you do.

Fact: The government does a crappy job at everything.

Fact: I won’t pm you. I’m honestly shocked I’m still wasting time on this conversation. Not interested in crossing some line? What’re you going to do suggest we meet up and duel. This whole conversation has taken the course it has because you decided to attack people rather than have a friendly discourse.

My age is of no concern. I’m sure someone in the late 1800’s made some age based argument right after they nearly extinct bison. But, I can tell you I’ll have a dog in this fight for a long time. Until the second coming of Christ or until my grandkids put me in the ground, I’ll be speaking up to protect hunter rights and the protection of the resources vital to wildlife. Have a good day, fella.

[Rainier10]

Topic is locked while the mods sort this out. Forum rules apply to PM’s just to be clear.