Just playing [emoji35]

[time2hunt]

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[HillHound]

Doesn’t surprise me. So many bears and cougars eating fawns and calves the cows are probably easier for the wolves

[2MANY]

Anyone that doesn't promote BLM grazing is either jealous or Blue.

[Feathernfurr]

Or they’re tired of cattle grazers mooching off government land and ruining their hunting spots 🤷🏼‍♂️

[nwwanderer]

Log it, graze it or watch it burn.  Grazing is a BLM tool that can benefit everyone.  Wolves on the other hand..............

[Feathernfurr]

I’d rather have an abundance of elk on the landscape. I’ve seen far too much elk and deer habitat destroyed by cattle due to over grazing and improper rotation of grazing allotments. Not to mention the ones that ignore allotments all together and cut barbwire. If it was up to me elk would be restored to all of their historical range along with bison. Cattleman can keep their cattle to their thousands of acres of private property. I’m interested in hunting, not eating beef and lining someone else pockets.

[time2hunt]

Why did you delete my post this is a person with no post count and stirring the pot.


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[PsoasHunter]

That's a pretty awful picture for anyone who raises livestock, my grandparents raised dairy cattle and this would be a nightmare for them.

Genuinely curious, what are the benefits of grazing to the public? I've never thought about it.  I saw the comment about fire suppression, but don't understand that given what cows eat.

[Feathernfurr]

Grazing removes fuel, less fuel, less intense fires. When done responsibly and with a scientific approach. Nature does this on its own when it has good populations of grazing ungulates. There are plenty of places that don’t allow cattle grazing, supports thousands of ungulates, and have healthy fire cycles.  But, overgrazing and soil compaction from cattle run rampant in most of the blm and forest service land that I’ve walked thousands of miles in. I’m not stirring the pot, but I also won’t stand aside and be called jealous or blue because I’d rather prioritize healthy public lands with better hunting opportunities.

Many states would have much larger elk and deer populations, especially states with reintroduced elk populations, if it wasn’t for push back from the cattleman associations fighting wildlife agencies over the threat of wildlife to their herds and grazing rights.

I’m sure there are good cattle farmers out there. My experience on public ground has been nearly 100% negative. I’m tired of the “woah is me, my poor cattle family” from ranchers who own hundreds and thousands of acres, and destroy the public land that self reliant folks depend on.

[Platensek-po]

I’d rather have an abundance of elk on the landscape. I’ve seen far too much elk and deer habitat destroyed by cattle due to over grazing and improper rotation of grazing allotments. Not to mention the ones that ignore allotments all together and cut barbwire. If it was up to me elk would be restored to all of their historical range along with bison. Cattleman can keep their cattle to their thousands of acres of private property. I’m interested in hunting, not eating beef and lining someone else pockets.

This. The whole reason we don’t have bison is because of cattle. All these leftists care about is predators but no one ever talks about bringing back bison. I’ve seen lots of good campsites ruined by cattle that were not supposed to be there. Not too mention the problems of cheatgrass taking over a bunch of areas.

[Rainier10]

Tagging along.  I have seen three wolves recently in Wilson creek drainage, one male with a collar, one male without a collar and one female without a collar. All three in same area. Lots of cattle grazing happening in that area.

[pianoman9701]

Or they’re tired of cattle grazers mooching off government land and ruining their hunting spots 🤷🏼‍♂️

Log it, graze it, or watch it burn. Cattle grazing represents one of the foremost wildfire deterrents on public land.

[bornhunter]

Doesnt a single horn on each side of a nice fat steers head in Colockum qualify as a true spike? 

[Rainier10]

WSU assessed our land and recommended a ten year break at least from grazing. The cattle had been brought in too early and left too long for multiple years by the rancher. Natural grass had been destroyed, weeds and sage brush had taken over creating more fuel for a fire than the natural grass.

Just like hunting it needs to regulated to have a sustainable habitat. Over hunting and overgrazing both are detrimental to the habitat in my opinion.

[bornhunter]

WSU assessed our land and recommended a ten year break at least from grazing. The cattle had been brought in too early and left too long for multiple years by the rancher. Natural grass had been destroyed, weeds and sage brush had taken over creating more fuel for a fire than the natural grass.

Just like hunting it needs to regulated to have a sustainable habitat. Over hunting and overgrazing both are detrimental to the habitat in my opinion.

 

[bearhunter99]

WSU assessed our land and recommended a ten year break at least from grazing. The cattle had been brought in too early and left too long for multiple years by the rancher. Natural grass had been destroyed, weeds and sage brush had taken over creating more fuel for a fire than the natural grass.

Just like hunting it needs to regulated to have a sustainable habitat. Over hunting and overgrazing both are detrimental to the habitat in my opinion.

This!  Grazing can be a great tool for the habitat and environment as long as it is not over grazed.  Once it is over grazed, even for one year, it takes many years to bring it back especially in the high desert soil environment.

[ducks4days]

Im a huge fan of grazing leases, mostly because they provide a $ justification for keeping public lands public.

Wolves predating livestock on private land should be culled. That shouldnt extend to public grazing leases, depredation risk should be considered part of the package that makes the grazing leases so incredibly cheap.

[Feathernfurr]

At $1.35 per animal unit per month I just don’t see the true value outweighing the negative impacts. Especially when you consider they’re really the only end user that gets to profit off of public land. I’d gladly pay the monthly fees equivalent to the allotments fees in my elk spots to keep cattle off of them. The damage I’ve seen from cattle (don’t get me started on off road vehicles) will last generations.

I can respect cattle farmers, and I can respect the benefits of proper grazing and rotations. But I’m not going to weep for them when I’ve seen the damage they’ve done in places that are important to me. I like a picture of a public landscape with abundant wildlife that a man can be self reliant on. Not a public landscape riddled with not native livestock with the mentality of “we’ll feed you”.

[GOcougsHunter]

I also think there are two sides of this coin.  My duck hunting spot on state managed land was allowed to be overgrazed, literally everything gone up to and into the water line of the lakes.  We used to set up our blind in the cattails or just into the shore brush. Everything was consumed.  Took almost 5 years for that to grow back.  I also enjoy my $3 hamburgers, so my opinion is really not worth squat.

[2MANY]

Location: West Wa

Of course it is.

[Feathernfurr]

Intelligent response. Idaho resident, Uncle Sam doesn’t give you a lot of options on where you get orders.

[time2hunt]

Just kind of curious on what makes you an open range grazing expert. Are talking strictly Washington state or you talking Nevada,Idaho,Wyoming and other BLM land grazing programs.


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[Feathernfurr]

Degree in ecology, with significant coursework in range management, and experience working in habitat programs for neighboring states wildlife agencies. My experience is specific to Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana. Not to mention first hand experience over a decade of seeing the impact of cattle grazing to a majority of the areas I big game hunt.

[Feathernfurr]

But it’s pretty simple with the point I’ve tried to make. Ecosystem can support X amount of animals. I’m interested in maximizing X in game species that I can harvest and provide for myself and family, and others having the same opportunity. I’m not terribly interested in X having to account for added cattle. I can appreciate someone’s business, and I don’t wish anyone ill will. But, if that business directly impacts my ability to use public land in the manner I desire, I’m not terribly likely to have the most empathetic ear, and that is my experience.

I’m not saying I want to see people’s cattle killed by wolves. I think it’s a crapshoot for all parties involved, the cattleman, cow, and wolf. I’m not heartless. I’m also not going to blindly support something that has had a negative impact on my lifestyle and act like it hasn’t.

[Mudman]

Any of you unhappy with cattle using your hunt lands I suggest ya stop eating beef then..... Or raise your own like us.  Problem solved.  To add to this debate I just returned from "natural" habitat of yellowstone.  Not to many deer or elk there.  Lots of cattle..I mean bison and wolves and bears too.   So there is an example.  Is that what we all want?   Maybe we should remove cattle and reintroduce thousands of Bison?   Eco friendly conservation right?

[time2hunt]

What if your Fish and Game department don’t see it the same way. You’re telling me if we pull all the cattle and sheep off open range state and BLM land that they’re going to increase the game herds. Or is it going stay the same and burn intensely hot and be worthless ground for years to come on the next big wildfire. I don’t disagree that the ranchers need to maintain fences and keep the cattle in their lease sections.


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[Feathernfurr]

In the aforementioned states, and many others where they’re reintroducing elk, the agencies want more wildlife. Additionally, I would speak up for the state agency to push for more numbers of wildlife as well. Mind you this relationship for management is between a state agency that controls wildlife, and a federal agency that owns the land, more often than not. Those relationships are rarely effective. Let’s be honest, in most areas, there is one blm officer in charge of hundreds of thousands of acres. Even if they tried to enforce the allotments, they don’t have the resources.

The thing is, in most of the western states, there are already enough ungulates to combat vegetation and support a healthy fire cycle. Grazing cattle push those ungulates off of prime habitat. In states with harsh winters, that habitat is vital to population growth/sustainment. I understand people’s concern with fire, especially when it comes at the cost of human life, homes, financially. Fire has its place though. Sure, it may create poor habitat for a few of years, but often times burn areas are the richest and most abundant areas in the aftermath.

The problem is we removed a giant portion of the wildlife that supports a healthy cycle in the market hunting days, replaced animals with livestock, and started fire suppression to protect towns and cities. Nature takes care of itself, but human impacts have changed that. There isn’t a whole lot we can do about it now. As you have maybe noticed in a number of my other “controversial” posts, I’m interested in the sustainment of wildlife and long term hunting opportunities for generations to come. That means being real about my experiences and fighting for less human impact on that balance outside of sustainable harvest and management. Whether it’s realistic or not, I will always support native species and game animals over livestock. I’m generally more supportive of using logging as a means of supplementing a healthy forest succession.

[Rainier10]

Just kind of curious on what makes you an open range grazing expert. Are talking strictly Washington state or you talking Nevada,Idaho,Wyoming and other BLM land grazing programs.


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Just play devils advocate, what makes you an expert?

I’m sure there are experts here but also think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, expert or not.

I can assume from the @2MANY response having a western Washington address decreases a persons street cred and diminishes their opinion.

Not trying to start a fight just trying to gage what a few of us from the west side with ties to the east side have to do to be able to express our opinion based on our personal experiences that some of you may know nothing about.

I appreciate a good discussion but some of the comments I have seen in this thread don’t promote discussion at all.

[2MANY]

"Grazing cattle push those ungulates off of prime habitat."
This statement is BS.

"I can assume from the @2MANY response having a western Washington address decreases a persons street cred and diminishes their opinion."
You can assume.
In some situations this may also be true.

"In states with harsh winters, that habitat is vital to population growth/sustainment."
Actually during harsh winters the wild animals migrate down to the private land and eat the farmers grass.
BLM grazing usually takes place at the higher elevations far above the harsh winter forage.

"I’d gladly pay the monthly fees equivalent to the allotments fees in my elk spots to keep cattle off of them."
Your elk spots? I thought this was public ground.

While some areas may be over grazed(especially in eastern WA), ALL of the BLM ground I'm familiar with certainly isn't.

[Rainier10]

I own land next to DNR. Most of my land is fenced. Where my land is not fenced next to DNR land cows from the rancher with the DNR lease graze on my land. When this happens I see an increase of deer on my fenced property during the time the cattle are grazing.

I will also say that since I have stopped grazing cattle inside the fencing I have see an increase in deer and elk inside of my fences.

One other thing to note is we had a massive fire ten years ago. The fire was on ground that had been heavily grazed in prior years and selectively logged.

Lots of variables. The heavily grazed areas didn’t do so well. The selectively logged did better.

All of them have seen an increase in all wildlife since the fire.

I’m just not sure that a blanket statement either way works.

Grazing is great for the land.

Grazing is bad for the land.

I will say the grazing should be managed if allowed.

I will also say I’m not an expert but I do have real world observations that are valid and shouldn’t be dismissed because of my permanent residence address.

[2MANY]

Over the edge??

[Mudman]

We just spent 12 days in Montana Idaho.  By Yellowstone.  Spent 400 miles driving mnt in sxs.  I speak of this because we saw plenty game and cattle and elk and antelope etc.  Most anmals were seen on leased ranch land and not in the huge red rock wildlife preserve.  Just saying.  Elk sure love those natural developed springs for cattle too!  I see no issues there.  I call BS in most situations of this weak argument.  Exceptions excluded of course as Surely there are issues needing better management but we eat beef in USA.  Cant have it both ways.

[Rainier10]

Over the edge??

Living on the Westside will push you over the edge.

That isn’t where the saying came from but it is true.

[Feathernfurr]

1 - “Grazing cattle push those ungulates off of prime habitat."
This statement is BS.

"I can assume from the @2MANY response having a western Washington address decreases a persons street cred and diminishes their opinion."
You can assume.
In some situations this may also be true.

2 - "In states with harsh winters, that habitat is vital to population growth/sustainment."
Actually during harsh winters the wild animals migrate down to the private land and eat the farmers grass.
BLM grazing usually takes place at the higher elevations far above the harsh winter forage.

3 - "I’d gladly pay the monthly fees equivalent to the allotments fees in my elk spots to keep cattle off of them."
Your elk spots? I thought this was public ground.

While some areas may be over grazed(especially in eastern WA), ALL of the BLM ground I'm familiar with certainly isn't.

Still waiting for you to back up any singular response you’ve made.
1 - You’re right, I’m absolutely making this up. I definitely didn’t arrive at this conclusion from years of running cameras and scouting areas and watching cowboys bring in truck loads of cows and push out 100+ elk herds from the area into lesser quality habitat. Elk love competing for resources.

2 - I’m going to bet you’ve never lived within 10 minutes of a major wintering ground. I’ve ridden by one everyday for a decade. I’ve watched cattle and sheep graze it all summer/fall in the valley on blm. Then watching 1000’s of deer, elk, and moose migrate into it. I’ve also walked it and counted dozens of dead animals in the spring when it opens. In the places I’ve lived (which have millions of acres of blm land) I’ve seen livestock grazing from 3k ft all the way to 7k ft.

3 - Semantics. Don’t be silly. “My” elk spots are shared with a lot of other hunters, we enjoy catching up in the woods every season. All of us get burned by the cattle once they’re brought in(generally just before or right after the start of the season). Oddly enough this area is loaded with grizzly, wolves, and lions. We never find dead cattle from predation.


I’ll just throw out some loose facts as well.
- 80-90% of the United States beef is owned by 4 major corporations. (I’ve found that much of the cattle in the areas I hunt is owned by wealthy Californians, and operated by South American cowboys on work visas)
- ~20% of the United States beef production is exported. That 20% is offset by imported beef from Brazil.
- I haven’t seen a ribeye worth a turd in grocery stores since Covid, and what I have seen has been far too expensive. Not a fact, but I’d like to see someone dispute it 😂

[PsoasHunter]

Wow, thanks for the education. Feathernfurr and Rainier10, I appreciate your thoughtful comments and data and observations to back it up. I especially agree that blanket statements never apply to complex problems. But thoughtful discussions are so much more work on the internet, so good on you for making the effort.

[2MANY]

Furfeather...You could not be more wrong on your assumptions about me. Kinda funny.

That being said the part of the west I frequent the cowboys ride horses and push their herds of cattle from mountain top to the ranch. Right down the highway if needed as a family and usually with the help of some neighbors. Most get sold and then shipped in cattle trucks the first week of November.
Trucks, trailers, cowboys from South America must be a new solution that I'm proud I'm not a part of.

Most all hat no cow types are against public grazing and it's only a matter of time until the west becomes exactly what you described. When it happens you won't need to worry about elk hunting. You'll be feeding your family just like they do in Europe.

[2MANY]

"We never find dead cattle from predation."

Nope.
The wolves eat the calves.

Sounds like you should be finding a better spot to elk hunt. The cows in your sector will be showing up every year and time hunting is a precious commodity.

[Mudman]

   Years of educatin and experience can lead some down the wrong road it seems.  LIVING that life is the true education.  Winter feed has 0 to do with summer grazing.  Grass grows to seed, falls over and isnt nutritous in feb.  Or when it has 2ft of snow on it.  Migration to lower elevations occupied by houses of liberals griping about things is where its at.

[Feathernfurr]

Funny, I’d argue the only person here that’s made assumptions about people is you.  Somehow my location makes me an uneducated liberal?


Mudman. Years of education and experience can lead people down the wrong path yet living that life is true education. Weird, experience and living that life sound like they’re the same thing. You’re right, winter forage and summer forage do change. As do ungulates gut microbes to be able to digest different foods to survive. I’ve lived and experienced places with true harsh winters, nothing Washington’s winters can hold a flame to. Winter forage in that area is just about anything they can find to survive. I can assure you the place where I’ve experienced these things the lower elevations aren’t occupied by liberals. The lower elevations aren’t even occupied by houses.


I’m sure both of your experiences are valuable and true. I also think they’re likely specific to smaller operations. But as I said previously, 80-90% of the countries beef production is owned by 4 corporations. That’s not small family operations. But, I’ll stand by my point. I’ve watched prime elk habitat slowly dwindle as cattle get shipped in every year, likely by bigger operations. I’ve also watched cattle illegally grazed by family operations and destroy prime deer and upland habitat. Hundreds of acres of it.

[Alan K]

I'm NOT an expert on grazing, but do have a career in forestry...

Why am I not surprised to hear that grazing on federal lands is mismanaged? Sounds similar to how our federal forests are.

I suspect just as in forestry where proper management lies somewhere in the middle between the no-touch federal forests and the 35 year rotation ages of investment group owned industrial lands, proper grazing is somewhere between the continual year after year grazing the same area and cattle free public lands. 

It's not all or nothing, or at least shouldn't be.

[2MANY]

Ranchers PAY the government to have their cows on the BLM range while others GET PAID to wander around and stare at the ground.

Is it the cow or the government employee that's taking advantage of the American taxpayer and our public lands?

Worried about elk?
Stay off the winter range. Even when the government says it's open. Elk are most vulnerable after a harsh winter during this period. Most can't do it though because the drive to get that shed is just toooo great.

Winter range?
Spent an entire winter 8 miles behind a locked gate in the federal winter range. Our ranch IS the winter range.
I understand the circle of life.

Books are great for learning, artificial intelligence spits out "facts", Some towns are great for skiing, Subaru is great on gas milage, and long hair saves on barber shop bills.

[Feathernfurr]

$1.35 an animal unit. You must really be subsidizing the government billions of dollars.

Interesting. Some of us are law abiding citizens and don’t touch winter range until after May 1st. Long after animals have moved off back on the journey to their summer range.

Oh you spent a singular winter behind winter range. That’s cute. You’re a tourist. Some of us have lived amongst it for years, you know, residents.

I’m sure maybe your family runs a great operation, rotates cattle regularly, and is the savior of the land. Talk to your fellow cattleman and get them on board with the same level of respect for the land.

[2MANY]

Fact:
That's $1.35 an "animal unit" (which is actually based on cow/calf pairs) more than you contribute.

Fact:
You have no skin in the game other than managing grass you don't own.

Fact:
The government does a crappy job of managing the grazing allotments.

Fact:
Shoot me a PM.
I'm happy to continue this however but not super interested in crossing some line on the forum.


How old were you when they introduced the wolves in the Rockies?

[Feathernfurr]

You couldn’t have played into that any more perfectly. You want to sit here and bully people, yet the second someone gives you a taste of your own medicine you get your hackles up.

Fact: I’m aware of what an animal unit is. Maybe more than I contribute, maybe not. You also get to make money off that deal. I don’t.

Fact: I do have skin in the game, my life revolves around conservation and hunting. I own that grass as much as you do.

Fact: The government does a crappy job at everything.

Fact: I won’t pm you. I’m honestly shocked I’m still wasting time on this conversation. Not interested in crossing some line? What’re you going to do suggest we meet up and duel. This whole conversation has taken the course it has because you decided to attack people rather than have a friendly discourse.

My age is of no concern. I’m sure someone in the late 1800’s made some age based argument right after they nearly extinct bison. But, I can tell you I’ll have a dog in this fight for a long time. Until the second coming of Christ or until my grandkids put me in the ground, I’ll be speaking up to protect hunter rights and the protection of the resources vital to wildlife. Have a good day, fella.

[Rainier10]

Topic is locked while the mods sort this out. Forum rules apply to PM’s just to be clear.