Wedge pack costs

[GrousePointer]

That said, sometimes you have to break bread with those you have differences with and work on the areas you have common ground.

Fair enough. Does that cut both ways? Are you willing to respect and break bread with outfitters and with hunters that despise wolves?

Yes

[Humptulips]

The thing that is amazing to me  is that everyone seems to agree deer and elk and all ungulates can and will destroy their habitat if their population gets to high. Not so with predators. A lot of people are pushing the line that they will control their numbers without our help. Yea, but what happens to their food supply in the meantime. Predator management is needed to keep ungulates from being overharvested by predators.
And true habitat is important but tell us what you propose  to do about habitat. Don't just tell us to forget about predators because they do need management.

[boneaddict]

Exactly, predator populations  are controlled by their bellys and disease.  Niether of which fit with man very well.

[villageidiot]

When they decide to start controlling the predators they need to include ravens and hawks.   Raven's have increased 300% over the past 80 yrs according to a report I recently read and are the primary cause of sharp tailed grouse decline.  Just this summer I raised 80 chuckars and did not release till they were full grown.  The red tailed hawks moved in and killed all but 21 then the chuckars got smart but then a smaller hawk family moved in and got all but about 10.   Hawks are protected because they are a migratory bird.  I use to have dozens of grouse on my place and now I might see a brood once every 10 yrs. but I see hawks every single day.  This is the first year I did not see one single brood of quail.  I saw several new hatchling hawks.  Not sure what they are eating now since they have everything killed off.   The wild turkeys here lose most of their chicks to ravens and the rainey weather gets a bunch more.  If we are going to harvest any game we have to eliminate our competition or at least reduce it.  WDFW is funded 75% by selling hunting and fishing licenses.  When there is no game to hunt, how will they be supported?

[GrousePointer]

When they decide to start controlling the predators they need to include ravens and hawks.   Raven's have increased 300% over the past 80 yrs according to a report I recently read and are the primary cause of sharp tailed grouse decline.  Just this summer I raised 80 chuckars and did not release till they were full grown.  The red tailed hawks moved in and killed all but 21 then the chuckars got smart but then a smaller hawk family moved in and got all but about 10.   Hawks are protected because they are a migratory bird.  I use to have dozens of grouse on my place and now I might see a brood once every 10 yrs. but I see hawks every single day.  This is the first year I did not see one single brood of quail.  I saw several new hatchling hawks.  Not sure what they are eating now since they have everything killed off.   The wild turkeys here lose most of their chicks to ravens and the rainey weather gets a bunch more.  If we are going to harvest any game we have to eliminate our competition or at least reduce it.  WDFW is funded 75% by selling hunting and fishing licenses.  When there is no game to hunt, how will they be supported?

The primary reason for the sharpies decline is habitat, or rather the degradation or loss of it. Habitat provides the cover to hide from ravens, hawks, and land predators. There has been study after study about this from state and federal agencies to non-profits like Pheasants Forever and they all say the same thing. If you want birds to thrive, they need habitat for nesting, food, and protection from predators and weather.

Again, sharpies and pheasant thrive in predator infested parts of the country. But those places have prime habitat for them. Show me a declining upland bird species and I'll show you habitat that is disappearing or gone.

Pen raised birds, be it pheasant or chukar, have a HIGH mortality rate even in the best of circumstances. They are not like their wild counterparts.

Big game has a similar problem in many places. It's just not as pronounced...yet.

[jackmaster]

your insane grousepointer, dude you wouldnt realize the obvious if it bit you in the ass, so tell why the ruff grouse are in serious decline....? we create some of the best habitat known to man by logging well the owl took that away.....when are you leaf lickers gonna wake up and see the real world through real world eyes, damn all you guys live in some fantasy land.....predators are on the incline and prey is on a drastic decline, it aint the habitat, its leaf lickers and politicians that keep people from doing what needs to be done to balance everything out.....have a good weekend all.... be safe.......except for leaflickers... go pet a wild wolf why dont ya.....

[Kola16]

your insane grousepointer, dude you wouldnt realize the obvious if it bit you in the ass, so tell why the ruff grouse are in serious decline....? we create some of the best habitat known to man by logging well the owl took that away.....when are you leaf lickers gonna wake up and see the real world through real world eyes, damn all you guys live in some fantasy land.....predators are on the incline and prey is on a drastic decline, it aint the habitat, its leaf lickers and politicians that keep people from doing what needs to be done to balance everything out.....have a good weekend all.... be safe.......except for leaflickers... go pet a wild wolf why dont ya.....

 

[GrousePointer]

your insane grousepointer, dude you wouldnt realize the obvious if it bit you in the ass, so tell why the ruff grouse are in serious decline....? we create some of the best habitat known to man by logging well the owl took that away.....when are you leaf lickers gonna wake up and see the real world through real world eyes, damn all you guys live in some fantasy land.....predators are on the incline and prey is on a drastic decline, it aint the habitat, its leaf lickers and politicians that keep people from doing what needs to be done to balance everything out.....have a good weekend all.... be safe.......except for leaflickers... go pet a wild wolf why dont ya.....

The problem for ruffed grouse is the same. In areas where they have been declining their habitat has degraded or disappeared. And you're right, the radical environmental movement has played a significant role in that since they fight logging in state and national forests every chance they get.

In Michigan they shoot scads of coyotes for a number of reasons. I have one friend out there who sees hunters do a round up every year around the surrounding farms as well as hers and they pile the corpses to the tops of their truck cabs. Michigan used to be a pheasant stronghold, but it isn't anymore despite all of the coyote hunting. But there are places they occur in Michigan and thrive, I've hunted some of those, and guess what? The habitat is prime.

I'm fine with hunting wolves as long as it's done legally. I've said that repeatedly. But  I hate to break it to you, it will only be a band aid even if you kill every last one of them. As hunters we are all facing a bigger problem and it's called habitat loss.

[Kola16]

your insane grousepointer, dude you wouldnt realize the obvious if it bit you in the ass, so tell why the ruff grouse are in serious decline....? we create some of the best habitat known to man by logging well the owl took that away.....when are you leaf lickers gonna wake up and see the real world through real world eyes, damn all you guys live in some fantasy land.....predators are on the incline and prey is on a drastic decline, it aint the habitat, its leaf lickers and politicians that keep people from doing what needs to be done to balance everything out.....have a good weekend all.... be safe.......except for leaflickers... go pet a wild wolf why dont ya.....

The problem for ruffed grouse is the same. In areas where they have been declining their habitat has degraded or disappeared. And you're right, the radical environmental movement has played a significant role in that since they fight logging in state and national forests every chance they get.

Since Some loggers have logged the side of the mountain, and a few other places, at my sister's house in NE Washington, she has had a lot more grouse around. Not only around her house, but in the clearcut.

[pianoman9701]

There's no question that several parts of our state suffer from the perfect storm assault on our different favorite game species - habitat loss, predators, unwarranted regulation and failed wildlife policies. To do with this thread, it's obvious that wolves are going to take over if something isn't done. The state is already talking about redirecting resources, overtime that won't be taken out of the wolf budget, but out of their general fund, and a general inability to respond without massive financial effort. They should open up hunting on them ASAP before this really is impossible to handle. Unfortunately, they won't. They'll see our herds diminish. They'll make our opportunities diminish. And the wolf situation will make cougar and bear management problems look like fond memories of times past.

[villageidiot]

In 1991 I moved onto this ranch (980) acres.  There were 17 bucks killed that first year.  This area (Okanogan county) was declared a "grizzly bear recovery zone" so no hound hunting was allowed.  The bear pop. started rising and the deer killed by hunters started dropping. Then in 1996 cougar hunting with hounds and bear baiting was abolished by the city  folks.  The deer numbers started plummeting even more.  In 1996 wolves moved into the valley and the last couple of years there have only been 2 and then 1 buck killed on the place.  The habitat is exactly the same.  No, I will retract that .  The guy before me had sheep and overgrazed it something fierce and the knapweed was rampant.  Now we have no knapweed and lots of grass so the habitat is restored.  The article I read about the ravens decimating the sharp tailed grouse was in Utah and the study compared the abundance of sharp tailed grouse way back in the 1930's and 40's when there was severe overgrazing and many times more cattle on their "habitat"than now.   It clearly came to the conclusion that it 'WAS NOT HABITAT LOSS but too many ravens who are protected. 
  The spotted owls habitat has been left alone now for over 20 years and the spotted owls population is still declining.  You can't always blame habitat.

[huntnphool]

 
  The spotted owls habitat has been left alone now for over 20 years and the spotted owls population is still declining.

And scientists have now proven that it wasn't logging/loss of habitat at all, but rather the Barred Owl that has been the reason for the decline.

[danderson]

  And now the game department is shooting the barred owls because they are responsible for the spotted owls decline, so if there science was wrong with the spotted owl and old growth forest decline wasn't responsible, what makes them think there biologists are any smarter today,  who's gonna be responsible for the failed wolf reintroduction  policy  when theres nowone left  watching the hen house?

[Special T]

When they decide to start controlling the predators they need to include ravens and hawks.   Raven's have increased 300% over the past 80 yrs according to a report I recently read and are the primary cause of sharp tailed grouse decline.  Just this summer I raised 80 chuckars and did not release till they were full grown.  The red tailed hawks moved in and killed all but 21 then the chuckars got smart but then a smaller hawk family moved in and got all but about 10.   Hawks are protected because they are a migratory bird.  I use to have dozens of grouse on my place and now I might see a brood once every 10 yrs. but I see hawks every single day.  This is the first year I did not see one single brood of quail.  I saw several new hatchling hawks.  Not sure what they are eating now since they have everything killed off.   The wild turkeys here lose most of their chicks to ravens and the rainey weather gets a bunch more.  If we are going to harvest any game we have to eliminate our competition or at least reduce it.  WDFW is funded 75% by selling hunting and fishing licenses.  When there is no game to hunt, how will they be supported?

The primary reason for the sharpies decline is habitat, or rather the degradation or loss of it. Habitat provides the cover to hide from ravens, hawks, and land predators. There has been study after study about this from state and federal agencies to non-profits like Pheasants Forever and they all say the same thing. If you want birds to thrive, they need habitat for nesting, food, and protection from predators and weather.

Again, sharpies and pheasant thrive in predator infested parts of the country. But those places have prime habitat for them. Show me a declining upland bird species and I'll show you habitat that is disappearing or gone.

Pen raised birds, be it pheasant or chukar, have a HIGH mortality rate even in the best of circumstances. They are not like their wild counterparts.

Big game has a similar problem in many places. It's just not as pronounced...yet.

I don't think this argument is Habitat VS Predator control. We all agree that Better habitat is good. Predator control NEEDS to happen. Part of the reason for their protection was because they were over-harvested. All predators were shoot on site, causing certain kinds of these predators to come close to extinction. Well most predators have been protected for long enough... Game management is there to control the different kinds of animals. The goal was once to maximize game, if it now to maximize the diversity AND number of game then we need to manage predators. That has been sadly lacking in this state on all predators for a long time. I believe it was the 70's when the Fed rules regarding ravens, hawks, and  cormorants,  and other birds were passed.. If their numbers have not rebounded it has little to do with the protection they have received over the last 30-40 years...

[bearpaw]

When they decide to start controlling the predators they need to include ravens and hawks.   Raven's have increased 300% over the past 80 yrs according to a report I recently read and are the primary cause of sharp tailed grouse decline.  Just this summer I raised 80 chuckars and did not release till they were full grown.  The red tailed hawks moved in and killed all but 21 then the chuckars got smart but then a smaller hawk family moved in and got all but about 10.   Hawks are protected because they are a migratory bird.  I use to have dozens of grouse on my place and now I might see a brood once every 10 yrs. but I see hawks every single day.  This is the first year I did not see one single brood of quail.  I saw several new hatchling hawks.  Not sure what they are eating now since they have everything killed off.   The wild turkeys here lose most of their chicks to ravens and the rainey weather gets a bunch more.  If we are going to harvest any game we have to eliminate our competition or at least reduce it.  WDFW is funded 75% by selling hunting and fishing licenses.  When there is no game to hunt, how will they be supported?

The primary reason for the sharpies decline is habitat, or rather the degradation or loss of it. Habitat provides the cover to hide from ravens, hawks, and land predators. There has been study after study about this from state and federal agencies to non-profits like Pheasants Forever and they all say the same thing. If you want birds to thrive, they need habitat for nesting, food, and protection from predators and weather.

Again, sharpies and pheasant thrive in predator infested parts of the country. But those places have prime habitat for them. Show me a declining upland bird species and I'll show you habitat that is disappearing or gone.

Pen raised birds, be it pheasant or chukar, have a HIGH mortality rate even in the best of circumstances. They are not like their wild counterparts.

Big game has a similar problem in many places. It's just not as pronounced...yet.

I call 

Of course there are some areas where habitat may be an issue. But, if there is so little habitat then why are there so many predators?

It's simple, there are too many predators, they need managed just like any other wildlife. The more predators you have the heavier impact they have, the fewer predators you have the lesser the impact. This involves some simple mathmatics, shoot some ravens, hawks, coyotes, bear, cougar, and wolves and you will have more of the other animals and birds.