wolf management will cost $2.3 million in 2013

[bobcat]

The spotted owl is endangered, and they did what they had to do to try to prevent it from continuing to decrease in number. If it weren't for the spotted owl, logging would have slowed down anyway, as they were cutting at unsustainable rates.

You all got your tin foil hats on?

[CementFinisher]

unsustainable rates? how so? Todays biologist have found that without multi stage forrest the spotted owl will continue to struggle. Also that the barred owl is out competing the spotted owl and is the main reason for the down fall of the spotted owl. all arguemants that were made back then. The owl was used to further an agenda and suto science was used just as with todays wolves

[bobcat]

Did you see how much logging was going on in the 80's? They didn't measure the area of clearcuts in acres, but square miles.

[CementFinisher]

I'm young but I've been interested in the topic for along time since i was very young. All info I've read or having talked to old time loggers it was completely sustainable. Yes the cuts were very large which was bad for game and some non game animals. but the overall harvest was not beyond sustainability. by the 80s logging had already slowed greatly compared to historic levels.

[bobcat]

Everything I have read said that they were logging at unsustainable rates. So the spotted owl wasn't responsible for much of the slowdown in logging. It may have put a stop to it sooner than if they would have just kept logging everything until all the trees were gone.

Not that I don't think there should be logging. And now we desperately need more logging in the National Forests, mainly Gifford Pinchot, that I'm aware of, to create more feed for deer and elk.  It's either that or we need to have some big fires to create that habitat.

Maybe they'll actually do that now, as more deer and elk would mean more food for wolves.

[wolfbait]

Just so you don't think i'm talking out my pie hole...
Here is one example of using the ESA as a weapon.
http://missoulian.com/news/local/montana-fish-wildlife-and-parks-sued-over-trapping-in-lynx/article_3bb83122-9297-11e2-8e2e-0019bb2963f4.html

And I can't find the other article i read about a "new" subspecies of fisher that they want to ban trapping in ID to protect... i will post it later

Taking Liberty, How Private Property is being Abolished in America

http://www.takingliberty.us/TLHome.html

[CementFinisher]

prior to 1935 the timber industry was washingtons lagest employers.The 1926 seen the largest amount of board feet cut, 1945 seen the next highest after the early 1920's from this point the amount of board feets declined. In the Northwest Forest Summit in April 1993 Clinton set aside a harvest of 1.2 billion board feet in NF compared the the 7.2 billion in 1926. the 1.2b was a quarter of what was practiced in the 1980s. In the 80s the fed already had sustainability codes in place for the timber industry. 94, 96, 98, 99 seen further fed reductions. private timberland's have grown to help sustain the industry, bringing the board foot levels equal to what was being cut in the 1980s. Todays FS levels are around 375 million board feet. there have been many arguments for decreasing logging starting with Roosevelt's conservationest preservationest ideas, to the protection of insects and fungi found only in old growth, to erosion into streams, to finally the owl being the scape goat for the preservationist idea of a wild places. All this while current science has shown selective logging would help, it would increase the prey species. Also science shows the barred owl as being the biggest threat to the spotted owl. just as the wolves the spotted owl has been controled by countless lawsuites, biased research funded by many wild life and anti timber industry groups. Many of these groups have found alot of representation by  getting members on working groups or into managment positions and work as biologest. HHHMMM sound familier?

[CementFinisher]

Most of the touchy feely groups dont approve of the killing of barred owls to save the spotted owl. They also got the goverment to increase the critical habitat map to more than 9.5 million arces twice as many in 2008. Of the new land 1% is old growth. These groups were extremely upset that private land was not included. So are they really fighting for the spotted owl? This land stretches from  North Cascade Mountains near the Canadian border down to the coastal redwood zone in California. Might be conspericy but kinda sounds like the wild lands project. This was used with owls and now with wolves. once industry can be hurt or shut down rural economies will crash. land and housing become cheap and can be bought at record low prices then sold to the goverment for a profit to be protected.

[skywalker253]

Skywalker thank you for proving my point.

Your welcome...

I tried to tell him, but he don't listen. LOL

[skywalker253]

My cousin married Bucky Manke from Manke. He always told us that logging slowed in the late 80's because the Japanese market slowed purchasing logs. Apparently they were purchasing logs and burying them underground to preserve them. Once they got their share, things began to slow. I know zero about this topic. Can any of the EXPERTS (and trust me, there is plenty on Hunt-Wa) catch me up on why specifically logging slowed down.

[bearpaw]

My cousin married Bucky Manke from Manke. He always told us that logging slowed in the late 80's because the Japanese market slowed purchasing logs. Apparently they were purchasing logs and burying them underground to preserve them. Once they got their share, things began to slow. I know zero about this topic. Can any of the EXPERTS (and trust me, there is plenty on Hunt-Wa) catch me up on why specifically logging slowed down.

Almost everyone else in my family worked in logging or lumber mills. The US economy hasn't helped, but, there is a big lumber market in Japan due to the sunami. In spite of the spotted owl affair logging is still very active on private and state lands. The problem is that the National Forest has practically stopped logging, mills could not get logs and many had to close. I am sure there are other factors depending on which mill or area, but the NFS really put a hurt on logging in my area.

[huntnphool]

My point is we start controlling right now or we are screwed, We cannot afford to wait for the whole state to get wolves by then it will be to late for many areas. Waiting 5-10 years to start hunting like stated above and most deer hunting in this state on the east side will be very limited at best.

I said IMO we WILL be able to hunt them in the next 5-10 years. Who knows? Maybe a year from now we can? It is all opinions and speculations at this point.

Just a FYI in case you didn't know, Idaho has been battling delisting wolf hunts in courts since 2002.

[huntnphool]

Here are the numbers estimated for the final proposal, it took a while but I found them.

[Humptulips]

Wow! That is quite a budget they wrote there. The compensation for livestock losses are really delusional.
The only missed this years request by 2 million.

[denali]

thanks huntinphool that is the kind of numbers I remember as well     I'm glad you found them.