wolf management will cost $2.3 million in 2013

[pianoman9701]

My cousin married Bucky Manke from Manke. He always told us that logging slowed in the late 80's because the Japanese market slowed purchasing logs. Apparently they were purchasing logs and burying them underground to preserve them. Once they got their share, things began to slow. I know zero about this topic. Can any of the EXPERTS (and trust me, there is plenty on Hunt-Wa) catch me up on why specifically logging slowed down.

Three words. The Sierra Club.

Contact the Ruffed Grouse Society for details on how anti logging policies actually hurt game animal numbers.

Also three letters: ESA

[AspenBud]

One of the frustrating things about a lot of environmental groups is they want to take a live and let live approach to forest management. But the second a forest fire starts they are ready to send the fire crews in. I think they love trees more than wildlife and biodiversity.

The sooner people understand the concept of mixed age forests the better.

Sorry for the deviation off topic.

[pianoman9701]

One of the frustrating things about a lot of environmental groups is they want to take a live and let live approach to forest management. But the second a forest fire starts they are ready to send the fire crews in. I think they love trees more than wildlife and biodiversity.

The sooner people understand the concept of mixed age forests the better.

Sorry for the deviation off topic.

I'm not sure the real enviro-freaks do want fire fighting to be done. I know they want to stop logging and hunting and cattle ranching and anything that has anything to do with using critters or other nature for man's benefit. Using the spotted owl was all about stopping logging. Using the grey wolf is all about stopping hunting and cattle ranching.

[AspenBud]

One of the frustrating things about a lot of environmental groups is they want to take a live and let live approach to forest management. But the second a forest fire starts they are ready to send the fire crews in. I think they love trees more than wildlife and biodiversity.

The sooner people understand the concept of mixed age forests the better.

Sorry for the deviation off topic.

I'm not sure the real enviro-freaks do want fire fighting to be done. I know they want to stop logging and hunting and cattle ranching and anything that has anything to do with using critters or other nature for man's benefit. Using the spotted owl was all about stopping logging. Using the grey wolf is all about stopping hunting and cattle ranching.

The spotted owl was also a way to stop hunting.

Less habitat = fewer deer = less hunting

I used to see dead deer on I-5 between Portland and Longview all of the time in the 80's. Barely see any now. I don't think that's coincidence.

[bobcat]

Spotted owls are nearing extinction. That's why their preferred habitat was given extra protection. It's quite a stretch to say that saving spotted owls was done only to end logging and hunting.

[AspenBud]

Spotted owls are nearing extinction. That's why their preferred habitat was given extra protection. It's quite a stretch to say that saving spotted owls was done only to end logging and hunting.

I'll buy into that.

But I think some of the more radical environmental groups out there saw this as a side affect and an opportunity.

Look, my point is we're not doing a good job managing habitat for any animal these days. Bare forest floors are essentially eco deserts. Mixed age forest makes things happen.

If the spotted owl is on the way out it's probably because it can't find anything to eat. I question whether those who support no logging really understand what a healthy thriving forest is.

We've already got guys on here who say they can't find deer in older stands of forest west of the mountains, areas that they used to find them in. Mountain lions aren't that efficient.

[pianoman9701]

Spotted owls are nearing extinction. That's why their preferred habitat was given extra protection. It's quite a stretch to say that saving spotted owls was done only to end logging and hunting.

The stretch was in saying that spotted owls only could survive in old growth, which was the basis of the listing that ended logging in many public areas of the NW. That mixed with advanced firefighting has eliminated a huge portion of habitat for other animals. I routinely see spotted owls in new growth. I believe that your saying they're nearing extinction is incorrect.

[bobcat]

Spotted owls are nearing extinction. That's why their preferred habitat was given extra protection. It's quite a stretch to say that saving spotted owls was done only to end logging and hunting.

The stretch was in saying that spotted owls only could survive in old growth, which was the basis of the listing that ended logging in many public areas of the NW. That mixed with advanced firefighting has eliminated a huge portion of habitat for other animals. I routinely see spotted owls in new growth. I believe that your saying they're nearing extinction is incorrect.

You routinely see spotted owls?     Sorry, I have to call BS on that. Perhaps you're seeing Barred owls, they look very similar. And, the fact is, spotted owls' preferred habitat IS old growth timber, or 2nd growth with old growth characteristics. I'd say more but this thread is about wolves, not owls.   

[pianoman9701]

Spotted owls are nearing extinction. That's why their preferred habitat was given extra protection. It's quite a stretch to say that saving spotted owls was done only to end logging and hunting.

The stretch was in saying that spotted owls only could survive in old growth, which was the basis of the listing that ended logging in many public areas of the NW. That mixed with advanced firefighting has eliminated a huge portion of habitat for other animals. I routinely see spotted owls in new growth. I believe that your saying they're nearing extinction is incorrect.

You routinely see spotted owls?     Sorry, I have to call BS on that. Perhaps you're seeing Barred owls, they look very similar. And, the fact is, spotted owls preferred habitat is old growth timber, or 2nd growth with old growth characteristics. I'd say more but this thread is about wolves, not owls.   

The point is that animal rights groups will do what they can through the ESA to stop the activities they don't like. They didn't like logging and found the spotted owls. They didn't like developments in CA and found a rat. They don't like hunting and got behind the wolf. If you don't want to see the pattern, that's fine. It's there to see when you decide to look.

[snowpack]

You routinely see spotted owls?     Sorry, I have to call BS on that. Perhaps you're seeing Barred owls, they look very similar. And, the fact is, spotted owls' preferred habitat IS old growth timber, or 2nd growth with old growth characteristics. I'd say more but this thread is about wolves, not owls.   

There are enough spotted to see routinely.  They are plenty distinguishable from barred owls, looks and behavior.

[bobcat]

The point is that animal rights groups will do what they can through the ESA to stop the activities they don't like.

I don't necessarily disagree with this statement, but I feel it's being applied too broadly. Spotted owls would not have been "used" to stop any activities if they weren't in danger of going extinct. It may have had the effect of slowing down logging, but logging in many areas was already being done at unsustainable rates. So if the spotted owl hadn't slowed down logging, it would have slowed down on it's own in another decade after all the old growth was gone.

Also, at least in the case of the spotted owl, I don't feel "animal rights groups" is the proper terminology for organizations that may have "used" the spotted owl to stop or slow down logging.

[bobcat]

You routinely see spotted owls?     Sorry, I have to call BS on that. Perhaps you're seeing Barred owls, they look very similar. And, the fact is, spotted owls' preferred habitat IS old growth timber, or 2nd growth with old growth characteristics. I'd say more but this thread is about wolves, not owls.   

There are enough spotted to see routinely.  They are plenty distinguishable from barred owls, looks and behavior.

Perhaps, if you're in the right areas, but I don't believe Pman is seeing them.

[pianoman9701]

I was married into a Roseburg logging family and had the opportunity to see some up close back in the early 90s. I know exactly what they look like when I see them. I've seen quite a few. And now, back to the topic at hand.

[bobcat]

I spent two years as a spotted owl surveyor, and in that time I only saw two spotted owls. I saw the same two owls on more than one occasion, but nevertheless, it was still only two individual owls. That's why I find it hard to believe that you would just randomly have seen several spotted owls, while not out specifically looking for them.

But, to get back on topic, yes I have also seen three wolves, back in 1990.

[Curly]

I spent one summer in the late 80's performing land surveying for USFS in the Olympics.  My immediate supervisor was a spotted owl hugger and fanatic.  He would go out on his own time (after hours and on the weekends) looking for spotted owls.  He would find them and get whole timber sale areas shut down because of the owls he would find.  I never did see a spotted owl, but I didn't go out at night. 

He wasn't doing it with the goal of shutting down logging; he just loved owls for some reason.  He and his boss really butted heads.  His boss was an avid elk/deer hunter and was pissed about this guy going out and finding spotted owls and getting timber sales shut down, because that meant less clearcuts for the deer and elk to feed in.........(and less cutting for the USFS to make money on).

I guess my point is that I'm not so sure that the spotted owl was used specifically as tool to shut down logging; maybe it was for some of the wackos, but others just liked owls and the result was some logging getting shut down. 

I believe the wolf is being used as a tool though, for an end game of shutting down hunting (more so than the owl was used as a tool for shutting down logging).  The anti-hunters have found the perfect tool.  But, like the spotted owl, some wolf huggers are simply in love with wolves and want them protected and don't really care about ending all hunting........   

One thing the owl huggers, tree huggers, and wolf huggers have in common is a lack of logic and the over use of emotion for whatever cause they happen to be in love with.

(I also saw wolves over 20 years ago).