Recovering game from the ONP

[Max the dog]

Just out of curiosity, if one was to legally shoot a elk outside the ONP and it managed to get inside the boundary, would you be allowed to recover it legally? My guess is you are supposed to call the state and ask some beurocrat for permmision, then deal federal inquisition while your meat spoils.
Thank in advance

[Bob33]

Without permission you cannot legally retrieve game from anywhere it would be illegal to hunt it.

[washelkhunter]

I would just go and get it.

[Max the dog]

To me it's kind of like the ethical debate of releasing a severely bleeding fish.  I am all for staying legal, but I wouldn't sleep well at night knowing an animal was just left to waste.  Hopefully I won't have to actually make the call. Just topic for debate.

[Bob33]

You asked if it was legal. It is not. Whether or not you decide to do it is an ethical decision that you will have to make based on the circumstances.

[bod]

Washingtonelkhunter you are a genius

[snowpack]

The park has a no retrieve policy.  So it goes to waste or you get cited if you go after it.

[pianoman9701]

Washingtonelkhunter you are a genius

 I know him. Let's just say he's working toward his genius status!

[pianoman9701]

The park has a no retrieve policy.  So it goes to waste or you get cited if you go after it.

And, if you waste it, you're also breaking the laws of WA. I would make a phone call to the local warden. I certainly wouldn't just throw up my hands and give up with an elk on the ground 100 yards past the boundary. my 

[JLS]

The park has a no retrieve policy.  So it goes to waste or you get cited if you go after it.

And, if you waste it, you're also breaking the laws of WA. I would make a phone call to the local warden. I certainly wouldn't just throw up my hands and give up with an elk on the ground 100 yards past the boundary. my 

It is not a violation of the waste laws because you have no legal avenue to retrieve the animal.  Same as if you  shoot it and it jumps the fence onto property where the landowner won't allow retrieval.  You have no legal means of retrieving it, so unless it can be shown that you acted recklessly there is no waste violation.

[pianoman9701]

The park has a no retrieve policy.  So it goes to waste or you get cited if you go after it.

And, if you waste it, you're also breaking the laws of WA. I would make a phone call to the local warden. I certainly wouldn't just throw up my hands and give up with an elk on the ground 100 yards past the boundary. my 

It is not a violation of the waste laws because you have no legal avenue to retrieve the animal.  Same as if you  shoot it and it jumps the fence onto property where the landowner won't allow retrieval.  You have no legal means of retrieving it, so unless it can be shown that you acted recklessly there is no waste violation.

OK, well I'm going to call, regardless. Thanks for the clarification.

[JLS]

The park has a no retrieve policy.  So it goes to waste or you get cited if you go after it.

And, if you waste it, you're also breaking the laws of WA. I would make a phone call to the local warden. I certainly wouldn't just throw up my hands and give up with an elk on the ground 100 yards past the boundary. my 

It is not a violation of the waste laws because you have no legal avenue to retrieve the animal.  Same as if you  shoot it and it jumps the fence onto property where the landowner won't allow retrieval.  You have no legal means of retrieving it, so unless it can be shown that you acted recklessly there is no waste violation.

OK, well I'm going to call, regardless. Thanks for the clarification.

I'd call too.

[lokidog]

I used to duck/goose hunt near a refuge and was told I could enter the refuge to retrieve a bird as long as I did not shoot at it in the refuge.  I could use my dog to retrieve as well, but could not "harass" other birds out of the refuge.

I guess Parks would be different.  Kind of stupid though.   

[snowpack]

I've heard it is because you would be possessing an animal within the park.  http://www.nps.gov/olym/parkmgmt/upload/2012Compendium-2.pdf
The rangers used to come out and escort, but now people tell me they say they aren't allowed to.  But they have a new superintendent, so might give it a try.

[bigtex]

The park has a no retrieve policy.  So it goes to waste or you get cited if you go after it.

And, if you waste it, you're also breaking the laws of WA. I would make a phone call to the local warden. I certainly wouldn't just throw up my hands and give up with an elk on the ground 100 yards past the boundary. my 

Because of the jurisdiction of Olympic (and Rainier) WDFW Officers (and other state/local LEOs) do not have authority within the park, state courts don't as well. The individual would be violating federal law for recovering the animal but would NOT be liable for wastage.

[pianoman9701]

The park has a no retrieve policy.  So it goes to waste or you get cited if you go after it.

And, if you waste it, you're also breaking the laws of WA. I would make a phone call to the local warden. I certainly wouldn't just throw up my hands and give up with an elk on the ground 100 yards past the boundary. my 

Because of the jurisdiction of Olympic (and Rainier) WDFW Officers (and other state/local LEOs) do not have authority within the park, state courts don't as well. The individual would be violating federal law for recovering the animal but would NOT be liable for wastage.

Thanks BT. How stupid is that?

[bigtex]

Just a little run down. Mt Rainier and Olympic NP are under federal exclusive jursidiction which means only federal LEOs and federal courts have authority. County Sheriff, WSP, WDFW, etc do not have authority in these areas. In these areas the NPS LE Rangers are the troopers, deputies, wildlife officers, all in one. A WDFW Officer can't go into the park and "help you out" because they are outside their jurisdiction.

Under federal law you would not be liable for wastage because it is illegal to remove wildlife, plants, etc from a park.

Now obviously there is a ethical issue of are the LE Rangers going to be 100% black and white with the law, or will they help you out.

Ultimately it is up to the Park Superintendent who is the equivalent of a Mayor. They decide which laws they want their LE Rangers to have no discretion towards, and which ones they can look the other way. So if the Superintendent tells their LE Rangers to let it sit and waste, well that is what is going to happen.

Superintendents are a mixed bag, you can have one that lets their LE Rangers do the "right thing" and others that want them to do what the law says. Big transition period when a new superintendent comes in.

[asl20bball]

I was nearly faced with this exact dilema last season...

I will say this... you are highly UNLIKELY to find a Park Ranger that will allow you to retrieve it. They're mainly a bunch of hippies that have no moral guidance when it comes to animal waste.

What happens in the park stays in the park (that goes both ways I guess)       

[EDT]

The park has a no retrieve policy.  So it goes to waste or you get cited if you go after it.

And, if you waste it, you're also breaking the laws of WA. I would make a phone call to the local warden. I certainly wouldn't just throw up my hands and give up with an elk on the ground 100 yards past the boundary. my 

I Agree with Pianoman.

[billythekidrock]

The park has a no retrieve policy.  So it goes to waste or you get cited if you go after it.

They tried to enact a no retrieve policy in 2009 for the ONP, but I believe that was struck down. Don't just take a Parkie's word for it. Make them show it to you in hard copy.

[billythekidrock]

I was nearly faced with this exact dilema last season...

I will say this... you are highly UNLIKELY to find a Park Ranger that will allow you to retrieve it. They're mainly a bunch of hippies that have no moral guidance when it comes to animal waste.

What happens in the park stays in the park (that goes both ways I guess)       

Not sure where you are talking about, but in the Quinault/Matheny/Clearwater areas of the ONP they can be found pretty easily and are pretty reasonable. They don't always have the best attitudes about hunters and hunting, but will usually make an effort to allow retrieval.

[Bob33]

The park has a no retrieve policy.  So it goes to waste or you get cited if you go after it.

And, if you waste it, you're also breaking the laws of WA. I would make a phone call to the local warden. I certainly wouldn't just throw up my hands and give up with an elk on the ground 100 yards past the boundary. my 

It is not a violation of the waste laws because you have no legal avenue to retrieve the animal.  Same as if you  shoot it and it jumps the fence onto property where the landowner won't allow retrieval.  You have no legal means of retrieving it, so unless it can be shown that you acted recklessly there is no waste violation.

JLS is exactly right.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=77.15.170

To be guilty of waste, the waste must be "reckless":    (b) The person recklessly allows such fish, shellfish, or wildlife to be wasted.

If you not legally able to retrieve the game, it would be difficult to prove reckless waste.

The situation with private (non federal) land is slightly different as of last June. The laws regarding trespass now include a provision about retrieving game.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=77.15.435

 (2) In any prosecution under this section, it is a defense that:
(d) The actor, after making all reasonable attempts to contact the owner of the premises, retrieved the hunted wildlife for the sole purpose of avoiding a violation of the prohibition on the waste of fish and wildlife as provided in RCW 77.15.170. The defense in this subsection only applies to the retrieval of hunted wildlife and not to the actual act of hunting itself.

[dr.derek]

Need help packing it out??...

[JLS]

I was nearly faced with this exact dilema last season...

I will say this... you are highly UNLIKELY to find a Park Ranger that will allow you to retrieve it. They're mainly a bunch of hippies that have no moral guidance when it comes to animal waste.

What happens in the park stays in the park (that goes both ways I guess)       

Not sure where you are talking about, but in the Quinault/Matheny/Clearwater areas of the ONP they can be found pretty easily and are pretty reasonable. They don't always have the best attitudes about hunters and hunting, but will usually make an effort to allow retrieval.

I'm sure the hunter's attitude plays a significant role in this negotiation too.

[ouchfoss]

Locally here in the Quinault area, the rules for retrieving have changed several times over the years. There has been several times in the last dozen years it has switched between yes and no for recovery. Locally I know back in 2008 it was the ranger's decision to whether or not he would allow you to recover an elk if it died in the park. Plus, the distance it ran into the park would be a big factor on whether or not they would let you tag and retrieve it. Some rangers would let you tag the animal if it ran 2 miles into the park and died and others would give you a short distance like 300 yards. If you do run into a situation where the elk crosses the park line, DO NOT GO IN AFTER IT! Don't set foot in the park after your animal unless you have a park ranger with you. I have heard of one instance where a guy shot a nice bull and watched it run 150 yards into the park and tip over. He left his bow and everything outside the park line and went in a gutted the elk and took pictures and whatnot and THEN decided to track down a park ranger for a retrieval. The ranger came unglued that he had went in the park and did what he did and made him leave the animal to rot and then went in a day or two later and sawed the horns into little pieces. Whether the ranger would have let him take it not if would not have touched it is hard to say but I have talked to one of the local rangers around here and he has told me that if I ever have one go in the park, to not go in after it and go straight to the ranger station to have him or another ranger go in with me on the blood trail. I actually had that happen back in 05 and they were pretty nice about it and went with me for probably 1/4 mile into the park until the blood trail vanished. Arrow placement wasn't the best and it still bugs me bad to this day that the bull may have went to waste in the woods.
If you plan to hunt near a park boundary area, I would go and talk to a local Ranger about what their rules are. 2008 you could retrieve if it was found, early 2009 they would let it rot, late 2009 they went back to possible retrieve and then 2011 it went back to let it rot.

[ouchfoss]

Seems like the people who make the rules for ONP arent the most intelligent. They keep going between the rangers decision for retrieval and the law saying to let it rot and then the local ranger George told me last year that legally you could carry a loaded gun in the park but discharging it was not legal and neither was carrying a bow across park land.

[HoofsandWings]

if you are going to be that close to a park boundary, you better be sure there is evidence outside the boundary that shows where you hit the animal. I would put a ribbon there. GPS it.
If there is no evidence, you could get into trouble.

[sirmissalot]

I spoke with a member on here last year who has retrieved a couple elk from just inside the park. He hasn't chimed in so I won't mention his name but I believe one was actually just on the other side of the river when it died and the other one was on open ground but he had to cross park lines to retrieve it... both of them he called and got permission for first. Hopefully he chimes in and tells the real story not just what I'm remembering.

[asl20bball]

Sounds like others' experiences are positive with the ONP Rangers....that's good to hear considering what my second-hand impressions have been.

[snowpack]

Sounds like others' experiences are positive with the ONP Rangers....that's good to hear considering what my second-hand impressions have been.

Every one of the ONP LE rangers I've dealt with have always been really cool--calm, professional and helpful.  They have even said where they see animals outside of the park.  Most I've talked to, say they would prefer that they could help a little more for people to retrieve game, but were instructed from above not too.  But also, as I mentioned earlier they have a new superintendent since they said it was a no retrieve policy.  This last year they had a few rangers working the park boundaries on opening day elk season on some of the popular trails.

[Roperfive88]

How about if you can't kill it with one shot and you are right next to the park don't shoot it. Every one is talking about not wasting the animal, and ethics. So its unethical to take a shot at an animal next to a National park unless you shoot well enough to be confident you can take the animal in one shoot. This is somthing that most hunters can't garuntee, my self included.   

[pianoman9701]

How about if you can't kill it with one shot and you are right next to the park don't shoot it. Every one is talking about not wasting the animal, and ethics. So its unethical to take a shot at an animal next to a National park unless you shoot well enough to be confident you can take the animal in one shoot. This is somthing that most hunters can't garuntee, my self included.   

Well, I guess we're all really honored to have such an ethical crack shot in our midst. Nice intro to the site.

[washelkhunter]

P-man is pretty sharp; esp: for being such a round person, he avoids this dilemma by hunting in the park. Afterall, thats where all the critters are. He shoots em then herds em outside the boundary. Its a win-win for all.   

[bigtex]

I am going to say this again. The RCW's regarding wastage and game retrieval do NOT apply to national parks in WA. Why? Because the federal law states you cannot possess wildlife, plants, etc in the park. In this situation the federal law is superior to the state law. This federal law is NOT just in WA but in all NPS lands. If an NPS LE Ranger lets you retrieve the animal he is doing it out of good faith, and simply turning his head on the law. If he wanted to be 100% by the book the animal would sit and rot and you would not face charges.

Some posters are right in that there is a new superintendent at Olympic. Depending how involved they are they can really dictate how much discretion Rangers have. And if the superintendent says no retrieval then that is the policy until further notice.

[pianoman9701]

P-man is pretty sharp; esp: for being such a round person, he avoids this dilemma by hunting in the park. Afterall, thats where all the critters are. He shoots em then herds em outside the boundary. Its a win-win for all.   

I only shoots 'em 'round the edges though, so I can still herd 'em. Them kill shots is fer the beginners!

[washelkhunter]

P-man is pretty sharp; esp: for being such a round person, he avoids this dilemma by hunting in the park. Afterall, thats where all the critters are. He shoots em then herds em outside the boundary. Its a win-win for all.   

I only shoots 'em 'round the edges though, so I can still herd 'em. Them kill shots is fer the beginners!

Its no mystery why you are a Master Hunter to be sure.....