Toxic broadheads...

[dreamingbig]

Will they be considered legal in Wa?

http://www.bowhunter.com/introducing-the-flying-arrow-toxic-broadhead.html

[RadSav]

If you are crazy enough to use them WDFW is crazy enough to let you.  Not barbed, more than two blades, not mechanical.

[dreamingbig]

I am not planning too however they are holding up amazingly in some of the testing that I have seen.  Interesting concept.

[724wd]

see more debate here...

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,118561.0.html

[dreamingbig]

Oops, I missed that.  Thanks!

[NW-GSP]

Oops, I missed that.  Thanks!

You have to remember that people on here are quick to talk bad about products they have not seen firsthand and are Internet experts!

[724wd]

Oops, I missed that.  Thanks!

You have to remember that people on here are quick to talk bad about products they have not seen firsthand and are Internet experts!

you also have to remember there is nothing new under the sun and this concept has been around for more than 30 years and failed each time 

[small Dog]

God I hope not, you might as well shoot a Deer, Elk, or anyother animal tied to a tree or go to the zoo and kill your animal.  Its called ( hunting ) for a reason. If our going to take the skill level out of shooting, then why practice shooting. All you need to do is just stick the animal.  Your not killing the animal, your tranqulizing the animal and you walk up to it and then kill while it is helpless you kill it.   You want to give the ANTIHUNTERS amunition to come at use, then thats the way to do it.   I love hunting and I don't want to see it go down that road.

[724wd]

God I hope not, you might as well shoot a Deer, Elk, or anyother animal tied to a tree or go to the zoo and kill your animal.  Its called ( hunting ) for a reason. If our going to take the skill level out of shooting, then why practice shooting. All you need to do is just stick the animal.  Your not killing the animal, your tranqulizing the animal and you walk up to it and then kill while it is helpless you kill it.   You want to give the ANTIHUNTERS amunition to come at use, then thats the way to do it.   I love hunting and I don't want to see it go down that road.

huh?  wha?  i sense you think this is a poison delivery device?  just a circular broadhead.  rest assured plenty of practice will still be necessary.  no tranquilizing here... 

[small Dog]

I apologize, I should have watched the video.  I was thinking of the tranqualizer type head that was going around about 30 yrs ago. After watching this video, it looks like something that I would like to try.
Like I said, I do apologize for not watching the video.

[sakoshooter]

Years ago Browning came out the the Serpentine similar to this broadhead. I still have one that I shoot for fun. It was terrible for hunting because it easily bogged down in hair and fat. It also didn't slice bone very well either. The marketing ploy back then had a guy shoot it thru an apple and other similar items. Great looking hole if you've got a watermellon tag.
I'd have to guess that this one will have similar results.

[RadSav]

I apologize, I should have watched the video.  I was thinking of the tranqualizer type head that was going around about 30 yrs ago. After watching this video, it looks like something that I would like to try.
Like I said, I do apologize for not watching the video.

Yeah, I figured you were thinking of the POD.  Easy enough to get Toxic and Poison mixed up.  Honest mistake IMO.  Little known fact is that heavy use by American hunters in Africa using the POD led to making archery hunting illegal in many areas of the continent for a time.  During that time an archer was considered a poacher which was a penalty of death.  A series of testing modern archery equipment was conducted by S/Ranger D. Van Eyssen and Duke Savora and approved by the Rhodesian government in 1981.  These tests conducted were known as the Chipinda Pools tests.  Shortly after the testing sport Bowhunting was reinstated in those areas.  Final words in D. Van Eyssen's Chipinda Pools report, Bow Hunting will rekindle the true spirit of HUNTING which seems to have taken second place to "Make the Book", "Rowland Ward", etc. etc., bigger scopes and more powerful guns.

Sometimes gimmicks just don't do it any better than the tried and true products.  And sometimes they threaten our existence as bowhunters.

[RadSav]

Years ago Browning came out the the Serpentine similar to this broadhead. I still have one that I shoot for fun. It was terrible for hunting because it easily bogged down in hair and fat. It also didn't slice bone very well either. The marketing ploy back then had a guy shoot it thru an apple and other similar items. Great looking hole if you've got a watermellon tag.
I'd have to guess that this one will have similar results.

Yes sir    And the Serpentine was a vastly superior product to the more recent Razor Ring and SaberMaxx.

[RadSav]

Oops, I missed that.  Thanks!

You have to remember that people on here are quick to talk bad about products they have not seen firsthand and are Internet experts!

You also have to remember that some of us have seen this product firsthand, tested similar products and understand the laws of physics, the behavior of blood platelets and the relationship between the broadhead and it's target.

[JPhelps]

Oops, I missed that.  Thanks!

You have to remember that people on here are quick to talk bad about products they have not seen firsthand and are Internet experts!

You also have to remember that some of us have seen this product firsthand, tested similar products and understand the laws of physics, the behavior of blood platelets and the relationship between the broadhead and it's target.

My exact point!  They keep talking about cutting surface.  This may just be my simple brain thinking but cutting surface doesn't necessarily matter. As long as a blade goes through the vein or artery the Broadhead has done its job and cut.  I don't care if I cut it 4 times because I'm shooting a cloverleaf, the wound can only bleed so much.

[xXx Archery]

Well here is the hole....they fly great

[kentrek]

Well here is the hole....they fly great

are you going to keep using them ??

[xXx Archery]

not sure...I LOVE my Slick Tricks ...But I will shoot them some more..the hole was big and lots of Blood...broke the front leg.

[TommyH]

hummm, need to hear some more on this............

[SGTDuffman]

It looks interesting but I'm skeptical about how it may perform, especially if it comes into contact with bone or make entry at an angle. Browning made something similar in the 70's with the Serpentine. They didn't work out well at all. I suspect this will most likely turn out the same way. It's nice to see people trying new things , but I don't see this one panning out.

[dreamingbig]

Were you disappointed with the penetration give the circumstances of the shot?

[xXx Archery]

It looks interesting but I'm skeptical about how it may perform, especially if it comes into contact with bone or make entry at an angle. Browning made something similar in the 70's with the Serpentine. They didn't work out well at all. I suspect this will most likely turn out the same way. It's nice to see people trying new things , but I don't see this one panning out.

it went threw the front leg ..Broke the bone....Quartering to me ...

[RadSav]

It looks interesting but I'm skeptical about how it may perform, especially if it comes into contact with bone or make entry at an angle. Browning made something similar in the 70's with the Serpentine. They didn't work out well at all. I suspect this will most likely turn out the same way. It's nice to see people trying new things , but I don't see this one panning out.

it went threw the front leg ..Broke the bone....Quartering to me ...

And the second arrow?  Time alive after first shot?  Penetration?  Bow poundage?  Distance traveled after shot?

[kentrek]

It looks interesting but I'm skeptical about how it may perform, especially if it comes into contact with bone or make entry at an angle. Browning made something similar in the 70's with the Serpentine. They didn't work out well at all. I suspect this will most likely turn out the same way. It's nice to see people trying new things , but I don't see this one panning out.

it went threw the front leg ..Broke the bone....Quartering to me ...

And the second arrow?  Time alive after first shot?  Penetration?  Bow poundage?  Distance traveled after shot?

i think it went all the way threw and he was just showing with the 2nd arrow where it came out..with that hole i dubt it would go far but ill let corey tell the story as im just guesing

[RadSav]

It looks interesting but I'm skeptical about how it may perform, especially if it comes into contact with bone or make entry at an angle. Browning made something similar in the 70's with the Serpentine. They didn't work out well at all. I suspect this will most likely turn out the same way. It's nice to see people trying new things , but I don't see this one panning out.

it went threw the front leg ..Broke the bone....Quartering to me ...

And the second arrow?  Time alive after first shot?  Penetration?  Bow poundage?  Distance traveled after shot?

i think it went all the way threw and he was just showing with the 2nd arrow where it came out..with that hole i dubt it would go far but ill let corey tell the story as im just guesing

Yeah, just questions we always ask ourselves and take notes of when field testing broadhead performance.  Sheep are quite easy to kill so I don't expect it was a long and drawn out harvest.  I've taken more than twenty and I don't remember one that was on it's feet for more than six or seven seconds.  I did not see blood on any fletching, wraps or nocks so it did seem odd to me as my arrows are usually covered even if I try to wipe them down for photos.  Cory usually shoots some dang good equipment at above average draw weights so that interests me as well.  But I am not trying to assume anything just get the details. 

Always fun to compare to our own field test studies.  Though a single field test is hard to pull trending data from.  We try to achieve a minimum of ten harvests with multiple impact zones before releasing any new broadhead to market.  As I told MLBowhunting, who did a great job of helping us test a new product, a heart shot really tells us very little.  Sometimes we learn more from that less than perfect shot that we can from a dozen heart shots as even a judo point is quite lethal when it center punches the heart.

Good to know Cory is still keeping up his Trouble Maker ways   I'll have to make my way over to the shop to flip him some horse pucky for using those dang things.  Maybe I'll raise his peep prices too while I'm at it

[xXx Archery]

ok first shot 24 yards Toxic BH, bow PSE DNA 72lbs,  Black Eagle arrow  452 Gr. he went about 50 yards? if they are up Im going to put more arrows in them...so 2nd shot was a Slick Trick Viper at 34 yards ..I hit my 1 arrow...lol... Tip to TIP...he fell 3 sec after the 2nd shot. I was happy how the BH did on the 1st shot it broke  that leg bad..

RadSav...I knew the Toxic would get ...YOUR ....GOAT....lol....Time will tell on this BH ,killing 1 thing is not yes or no for me...Im 97% going to shoot Slick Tricks but Im sure Ill have 1 or 2 Toxic in my Quiver 

[RadSav]

..I hit my 1 arrow...lol... Tip to TIP...

How cool is that!  When I shoot my first arrow at any angle it makes me stupid school girl happy.  Tip to tip would probably make me so giddy I'd join all the other girls and sign up for Facebook

But 452/72# into a dang sheep I'd expect to be looking for my arrow yards beyond impact if I were shooting a Slicky, WASP or Savora.

Congratulations on the sheep. Even if you did shoot it with that stupid head just to get my goat

[xXx Archery]

..I hit my 1 arrow...lol... Tip to TIP...

How cool is that!  When I shoot my first arrow at any angle it makes me stupid school girl happy.  Tip to tip would probably make me so giddy I'd join all the other girls and sign up for Facebook

But 452/72# into a dang sheep I'd expect to be looking for my arrow yards beyond impact if I were shooting a Slicky, WASP or Savora.

Congratulations on the sheep. Even if you did shoot it with that stupid head just to get my goat

The good thing was I was looking threw the best peep ....

[SGTDuffman]

These coring broadheads have never worked in the past, I don't see why they would start working now. The Bigame Curved Aux broadhead from 1956 is almost exactly the same thing. They usually jam up and get full of hair. Even when they work, they're stopped cold by bones. At best they'll go in up to the coring part when hitting bone.

[pianoman9701]

Here's the reg:
g.   It is unlawful to hunt big game animals
with a broadhead blade unless the
broadhead is unbarbed and completely
closed at the back end of the blade or
blades by a smooth, unbroken surface
starting at maximum blade width and
forming a smooth line toward the
feather end of the shaft and such line
does not angle toward the point.

It's hard to determine legality of this. Does "smooth" mean strait, or does this just refer to non-serrated blades? Unfortunately, this description is ambiguous with regards to the broadhead in question and may be up to the discretion of the gamie checking gear. Whether or not he's correct, if he cites you, you'd have to go to court to get a ruling and in the meantime, not be able to hunt until it's resolved, most likely after the end of the season you're hunting.

[RadSav]

Smooth does not mean straight.  It's simply stating there shall be nothing that constitutes a barb.  Though I would never shoot a Toxic head I see absolutely nothing that would make it illegal in WA.

SGTDuffman - Good job on finding the pics of that head.  I tried to find one earlier and could not.  Though I could not remember the name of it either.  Well done

[pianoman9701]

Smooth does not mean straight.  It's simply stating there shall be nothing that constitutes a barb.  Though I would never shoot a Toxic head I see absolutely nothing that would make it illegal in WA.

SGTDuffman - Good job on finding the pics of that head.  I tried to find one earlier and could not.  Though I could not remember the name of it either.  Well done

I would agree with you, Rad. I just don't know if a gamie would, that's all.

[jrebel]

If I draw a second deer tag this year, I will buy a set and see how they fly.  If they fly good I will shoot my doe with it and try to video tape the hunt.  The proof will be in the pudding so to speak.  Wish me luck on my second deer tag. 

[SGTDuffman]

Good luck on your second tag.

I still don't know that good shots made will be proof of much of anything. You could kill an animal with a well placed shot with no head at all on the arrow, but it doesn't make it the best choice. I'm not really concerned how these would perform under ideal conditions, I'm concerned what happens when conditions aren't ideal, but I can't advocate anyone making imperfect shots just to satiate my curiosity. In the event I pull a shot or an animal jumps the string, I want the highest penetration possible. For that a 2 blade is unbeatable. Some fancy new heads might make wider wound channels or more cuts or something, but nothing will out penetrate a 2 blade through bone or tissue. They aren't very high tech or sexy, but there's no arguing against their track record. They've been working on arrows for the last 60,000 years, and on spears before that.

I like seeing companies try to advance the sport and the technology, but there isn't much that hasn't already been tried on broad heads. The vast majority of these "improvements" have failed and why almost all of the most highly regarded or highly lauded broad heads around today are very simple designs. Things like Magnus Stingers/Buzzcut/Snuffer, Muzzy MX series, NAP Hellrazor/Thunderhead, Zwickey, VPA, Alaska Bowhunting, etc are pretty uncomplicated affairs. They are usually 2-3 blade heads, sometimes 4 in the case of some of the Muzzys (which have more blades but they are short in length compared to most 2 or 3 blade styles giving them less surface area and relatively good penetration for a 4 blade). Sometimes they have replaceable blades, but they're all pretty basic in design or function. Generally the ones with the fewest parts are least prone to failures. And the ones with the least drag, or the smallest blade surface area, penetrate the deepest and most reliably. The excuses we give our wives for spending more money on archery stuff might change, but the laws of physics don't. More blade surface = more drag. More drag = less penetration.

We're fast to forget and slow to remember that a lot of the "problems" we face aren't new. Our dads, granddads, and ancestors all wrestled with these same things long before our time. They all tried finding more effective means of putting animals on the ground, and look what the market is left with. Sharp 2 and 3 blade pieces of steel still reign supreme. You can fancy it up by using aircraft grade materials, or serrated blades, or hollow ground this or that, but all the marketing jargon in the world doesn't make it any more than a sharp 2 or 3 sided piece of metal. I don't need to shoot anything to know that a 6 bladed head with curved blades won't out penetrate the 2 blade I have now. I also know it would be a significantly weaker design. It is also at the very legal minimum of what this state allows, being exactly 7/8" wide. It's hard to take them serious when they talk about all their research and how nothing like this has ever been done before. Yes it has, almost 60 years ago and it was a complete failure. Their marketing doesn't make it any easier when they say things like, "The archer will notice when the arrow strikes, the animal’s noticeable will to live is less than traditionally expected in the archery world." C'mon guys. If you use this head, animals lose the will to live?

[RadSav]

Good luck on your second tag.

I still don't know that good shots made will be proof of much of anything. You could kill an animal with a well placed shot with no head at all on the arrow, but it doesn't make it the best choice. I'm not really concerned how these would perform under ideal conditions, I'm concerned what happens when conditions aren't ideal, but I can't advocate anyone making imperfect shots just to satiate my curiosity.

That's exactly it right there  

I personally have witnessed two accidental animal shootings where the archer/bowhunter in the heat of the moment removed a small game pointed arrow from their quiver and killed their animal.  One was a young cow elk shot through the heart with a Judo point and one a 548# blackbear shot through the heart with an old rusty, dirty and heavily chipped Satellite .010" Aero 4 blade.  The elk went 30 yards and expired the bear didn't make it five yards before it expired.  And I have seen with my own eyes a deer shot through the heart with the worlds dullest and most absurd broadhead ever invented - the Atom Broadhead, with a recovery less than 100 yards.  Perfect shots just do not tell us much at all.  Even if the internet is full of bowhunters that have never made a bad shot in their lives   It's still best to error on the side of making a bad hit every once in a while.

Once you start evaluating products based in medical/clinical and metallurgical sciences you begin to start seeing the separation of good and bad in questionable shot placement.  The goal should not be to simply recover an animal with these shots, but to accelerate the recovery and death.  The difference between good, bad and mediocre is quite evident with these hits.

There is also the study of nonvital hits.  This is the area that concerns me the most with soft, dull gimmicky heads like the Toxic.  I do not want to find an animal weeks after a nonvital hit suffering and dying a slow death due to infection and sepsis.  I want to see that animal in full recovery within days or even hours of a nonvital hit.

In '88 I shot what should have been my third P&Y buck.  At 20 yards I thought the heavy quartering away shot was perfect even though it did look a little high.  The buck had run 150 yards down to a flat at the bottom of the clearcut and was doing the wide legged death wobble.  So instead of watch I decided to head back to the truck to get my pack, have some lunch and drop off my bow.  When I returned to the ridgeline where I had taken the shot I could now see the buck scratching or rubbing his neck where the arrow had exited.  Dangit!!!  To high and too far forward!  Back to the truck to get the bow and back on to stalking for another shot.  It was not to be.  Last I saw of that buck he was running full bore headed for the next county

I was returning to the same location the very next weekend to see if I could get another try at the big buck.  About two miles from my destination I had a doe walk across the road in front of me.  I stopped to watch her make her way up through a clearcut.  I got out of the truck with my camera hoping for a good picture when I heard another deer coming up onto the road.  Another doe makes it to the road, while the buck I had shot the week before is riding her in an attempt to breed.  He's feeling pretty darned good!!    And pays little attention to me as I scramble to get back to the truck and get my bow out of the case.  About ten minutes of bird dogging later the big boy takes another one of my Aviatubes tipped with a Swept-Wing 4.  This time from arse to throat and he makes it less than 20 yards before going down.  Thank goodness for a quick recovery and some stupid good luck after my first nonvital shot the week before.

Further investigation of my first shot showed the broadhead had entered behind the left shoulder blade, traveled over the top of the spine in front of the shoulder and exited mid neck on the far side.  Sure looked like a good shot the week before, but too much angle, too far forward and too high.  Soft dull bladed meat worm creating broadheads would have done nothing to help me recover that buck the week prior.  But I would dang near guarantee that buck would not be hanging on my wall today if I had been shooting one.  Coyotes and ravens would probably have been the only ones enjoying him.  And I would have felt horrible knowing he had met a long and slow death.

[spotnstalkmuleys]

people keep talking about these broadheads ike the wont penetrate bone. remember they have a hardened steel chisel piont, they are not cut on contact. also watch this video. and remember that steel is flexible and bone is brittle. i dont think this broadhead will have any problem with a deers shoulder let alone ribs. i see shards of bone resulting from a hit. 

Toxic Broadhead Test: Steel Barrel

[Kain]

Interesting design for sure.  I like that companies are looking for better designs even if this one might not be it.  I see a lot of people that are critical of anything that is different and resistant to change most of the time without even seeing it or shooting it.  Never really understood that.  I remember the chisel tip vs cut on contact debates.  2-3-4 blades.  More cutting surface can be good and bad.  Obviously adds to resistance and would change penetration but can also cause faster bleed outs.  A lot of us are overpowered and could sacrifice some resistance and still get passthroughs.  On a perfect hit something like this might be superior.  On a marginal hit who knows. 

I dont think I would shoot these just because of the damage they would do to my target.     But then again if it does that kind of damage to my target then maybe that is the right choice for an animal after all. 

If it flies straight I doubt there would be that big of a difference in lethality.