Vail/ PeEll tree farm permits

[headshot5]

You don't understand the excise tax on timber. It applies to all timber sold regardless of if it comes off a tree farm or not. We sold timber off our land, 7 acres, not tree farm status, no tax break. The land has a tax valuation of $4500/acre. The adjoining property is timberland but the same type land. It has a tax valuation of $150/acre.
We pay the same exact percentage tax when timber is sold. To say the timber excise tax makes up for the timberland tax break is not true. It works out to be  a seperate tax that applies to all who sell timber.

Read up on open space designated timberlands (my above post) for tax rates... 

[Humptulips]

Grundy, so do you not agree with the below quote?

If they buy land for $3000/acre how can anyone think it is OK to value that land for tax puposes at $150/acre unless the public is shown some benefit. If they want it to be just dollars and cents so be it, their choice.

It isn't for public access. It is because the land becomes basically useless for the next  40 years ( while the trees grow). The state makes the difference up when Weyerhaeuser PAYS THE EXCISE TAX on the harvested timber. So they end up pay more taxes. Same as a wheat farmer in eastern Washington (who isn't forced to allow public access).

sent from my typewriter

You don't understand the excise tax on timber. It applies to all timber sold regardless of if it comes off a tree farm or not. We sold timber off our land, 7 acres, not tree farm status, no tax break. The land has a tax valuation of $4500/acre. The adjoining property is timberland but the same type land. It has a tax valuation of $150/acre.
We pay the same exact percentage tax when timber is sold. To say the timber excise tax makes up for the timberland tax break is not true. It works out to be  a seperate tax that applies to all who sell timber.

I bet 90 percent of timber comes off of timber lands. Your example is the exception not the rule. You aren't tying up thousands of acres making them basically worthless for 40 years at  a time.  7 acres is  not even a drop in the hat....

sent from my typewriter

So basically you're saying it's Ok to tax me more because I am the little guy? My land is growing trees. How is it any more usable then WEYCOs growing trees?
OK, you're right. I can walk out, hunt, pick mushrooms and smell fir trees on it. IF WEYCO, Hancock, etc let me do the same I say give them their tax break.

[headshot5]

So basically you're saying it's Ok to tax me more because I am the little guy? My land is growing trees. How is it any more usable then WEYCOs growing trees?
OK, you're right. I can walk out, hunt, pick mushrooms and smell fir trees on it. IF WEYCO, Hancock, etc let me do the same I say give them their tax break.

http://dor.wa.gov/docs/pubs/prop_tax/openspace.pdf

Read through this and settle down.  If your property meets the requirements for open space designation, then apply if not then realize that the private timber lands get their tax breaks by following the rules.

[Humptulips]

Yep updated my above post with links to tax information, and open space tax breaks. 

Please read them and notice that public access is not required for tax breaks although it helps to qualify.  Other things like scenery, protecting a watershed etc, providing wildlife habitat etc are all things that fit in.

If you read your own links you will see the timber excise tax is not specific to industrial forest land owners.
Here's a link that shows the property tax rates for timberland  http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=84.33.140

Usually in our society when you give someone something it is because you expect something in return. I see nothing wrong in asking for something in return for this tax break.

[Humptulips]

So basically you're saying it's Ok to tax me more because I am the little guy? My land is growing trees. How is it any more usable then WEYCOs growing trees?
OK, you're right. I can walk out, hunt, pick mushrooms and smell fir trees on it. IF WEYCO, Hancock, etc let me do the same I say give them their tax break.

http://dor.wa.gov/docs/pubs/prop_tax/openspace.pdf

Read through this and settle down.  If your property meets the requirements for open space designation, then apply if not then realize that the private timber lands get their tax breaks by following the rules.

You're not following me. This is stick and carrot. It's either that or bend over.

[headshot5]

Usually in our society when you give someone something it is because you expect something in return. I see nothing wrong in asking for something in return for this tax break.

Here is the benefits the public would see, in order for timberland to be designated as open space land getting tax breaks.  I do not make the rules.

a. Conserve and enhance natural or scenic resources.

b. Protect streams or water supply.

c. Promote conservation of soils, wetlands, beaches or tidal marshes. (As a condition of granting open space classification, the legislative body may not require public access on land classified for the purpose of promoting conservation of wetlands.)

d. Enhance the value to the public of neighbouring parks, forests, wildlife preserves, nature reservations or sanctuaries or other open space.

e. Enhance recreation opportunities.

f. Preserve historic sites.

g. Preserve visual quality along highway, road, and street corridors or scenic vistas.

h. Retain in its natural state tracts of land not less than one acre situated in an urban area and open to public use on such conditions as may be reasonably required by the legislative authority granting the open space classification.

[bobcat]

e. Enhance recreation opportunities.

So how does locking the public out provide for the above?

It's not just hunters who are affected by this. In fact, hunters are now the only users who will have access to the Vail and Pe Ell tree farms.

Even someone who lives adjacent to the tree farm will not be allowed to step across the property line,for any reason.

[fireweed]

You are arguing over the wrong tax law.  Open space taxation (Open space farm/ag, open space timber, and open space/open space) are for small parcels.  Weyco land is  "designated timberland"  ie. parcels over 20 acres.  I own both--open space timber that requires a timber plan and is approved by the county, and designated timber over 20 acres.  BOTH get tax breaks due to the public benefits forests provide.  These are the items the public gets in return for low property taxes--now they expect the full tax break AND want to charge the public too: It's double dipping.  They either charge OR get a tax break--not both.

RCW 84.33.010
Legislative findings.
 
As a result of the study and analysis of systems of taxation of standing timber and forest lands by the forest tax committee pursuant to Senate Concurrent Resolution No. 30 of the 41st session of the legislature, and the recommendations of the committee based thereon, the legislature hereby finds that:

     (1) The public welfare requires that this state's system for taxation of timber and forest lands be modernized to assure the citizens of this state and its future generations the advantages to be derived from the continuous production of timber and forest products from the significant area of privately owned forests in this state. It is this state's policy to encourage forestry and restocking and reforesting of such forests so that present and future generations will enjoy the benefits which forest areas provide in enhancing water supply, in minimizing soil erosion, storm and flood damage to persons or property, in providing a habitat for wild game, in providing scenic and recreational spaces, in maintaining land areas whose forests contribute to the natural ecological equilibrium, and in providing employment and profits to its citizens and raw materials for products needed by everyone.

[grundy53]

Grundy, so do you not agree with the below quote?

If they buy land for $3000/acre how can anyone think it is OK to value that land for tax puposes at $150/acre unless the public is shown some benefit. If they want it to be just dollars and cents so be it, their choice.

It isn't for public access. It is because the land becomes basically useless for the next  40 years ( while the trees grow). The state makes the difference up when Weyerhaeuser PAYS THE EXCISE TAX on the harvested timber. So they end up pay more taxes. Same as a wheat farmer in eastern Washington (who isn't forced to allow public access).

sent from my typewriter

You don't understand the excise tax on timber. It applies to all timber sold regardless of if it comes off a tree farm or not. We sold timber off our land, 7 acres, not tree farm status, no tax break. The land has a tax valuation of $4500/acre. The adjoining property is timberland but the same type land. It has a tax valuation of $150/acre.
We pay the same exact percentage tax when timber is sold. To say the timber excise tax makes up for the timberland tax break is not true. It works out to be  a seperate tax that applies to all who sell timber.

I bet 90 percent of timber comes off of timber lands. Your example is the exception not the rule. You aren't tying up thousands of acres making them basically worthless for 40 years at  a time.  7 acres is  not even a drop in the hat....

sent from my typewriter

So basically you're saying it's Ok to tax me more because I am the little guy? My land is growing trees. How is it any more usable then WEYCOs growing trees?
OK, you're right. I can walk out, hunt, pick mushrooms and smell fir trees on it. IF WEYCO, Hancock, etc let me do the same I say give them their tax break.

That's not what I'm saying at all. My point is FEASIBILITY. If you have 1000 acres of land and you are going to pay taxes based on a $4500/acre assessment. Are you A) going to choose to grow timber, which will tie that land up for 40 years while you are paying thousands a year per acre while it sits idle. Only to also pay an excise tax on the timber when you log it? Which means you probably will lose money in the invesment. Or B) sell it to a developer/ sell parcels, in which case you could probably turn a profit? That's my point. It would not be feasible to run a timber operation. Also, I'm not just talking about the big guys.

By the way, of your 7 acres were for timber only the land would qualify as "timberland" and be eligible for the tax break...

sent from my typewriter

[headshot5]

You are arguing over the wrong tax law.  Open space taxation (Open space farm/ag, open space timber, and open space/open space) are for small parcels.  Weyco land is  "designated timberland"  ie. parcels over 20 acres.  I own both--open space timber that requires a timber plan and is approved by the county, and designated timber over 20 acres.  BOTH get tax breaks due to the public benefits forests provide.  These are the items the public gets in return for low property taxes--no they just want to take the full tax break AND charge too: It's double dipping.  They either charge OR get a tax break--not both.

RCW 84.33.010
Legislative findings.
 
As a result of the study and analysis of systems of taxation of standing timber and forest lands by the forest tax committee pursuant to Senate Concurrent Resolution No. 30 of the 41st session of the legislature, and the recommendations of the committee based thereon, the legislature hereby finds that:

     (1) The public welfare requires that this state's system for taxation of timber and forest lands be modernized to assure the citizens of this state and its future generations the advantages to be derived from the continuous production of timber and forest products from the significant area of privately owned forests in this state. It is this state's policy to encourage forestry and restocking and reforesting of such forests so that present and future generations will enjoy the benefits which forest areas provide in enhancing water supply, in minimizing soil erosion, storm and flood damage to persons or property, in providing a habitat for wild game, in providing scenic and recreational spaces, in maintaining land areas whose forests contribute to the natural ecological equilibrium, and in providing employment and profits to its citizens and raw materials for products needed by everyone.

Perfect.   

Thanks for the update on parcel sizes.  Now everyone should read the quoted post, so we don't have the same threads come up over and over,  about some mystical law giving timber owners a tax break to allow public access. 

I see nothing saying that the property has to be free of charge.  Heck even the state land requires fee's (Discover Pass) for vehicles. 

Private lands require maitenance also, (picking up garbage etc.)

If everyone wants to raise taxes on timber owners unless they let the public in maybe they should purchase their own timber property, pay taxes on it, and allow the public in for free.  Then go out and pick up the residual garbage, and fix the roads etc.

[Humptulips]

Grundy, so do you not agree with the below quote?

If they buy land for $3000/acre how can anyone think it is OK to value that land for tax puposes at $150/acre unless the public is shown some benefit. If they want it to be just dollars and cents so be it, their choice.

It isn't for public access. It is because the land becomes basically useless for the next  40 years ( while the trees grow). The state makes the difference up when Weyerhaeuser PAYS THE EXCISE TAX on the harvested timber. So they end up pay more taxes. Same as a wheat farmer in eastern Washington (who isn't forced to allow public access).

sent from my typewriter

You don't understand the excise tax on timber. It applies to all timber sold regardless of if it comes off a tree farm or not. We sold timber off our land, 7 acres, not tree farm status, no tax break. The land has a tax valuation of $4500/acre. The adjoining property is timberland but the same type land. It has a tax valuation of $150/acre.
We pay the same exact percentage tax when timber is sold. To say the timber excise tax makes up for the timberland tax break is not true. It works out to be  a seperate tax that applies to all who sell timber.

I bet 90 percent of timber comes off of timber lands. Your example is the exception not the rule. You aren't tying up thousands of acres making them basically worthless for 40 years at  a time.  7 acres is  not even a drop in the hat....

sent from my typewriter

So basically you're saying it's Ok to tax me more because I am the little guy? My land is growing trees. How is it any more usable then WEYCOs growing trees?
OK, you're right. I can walk out, hunt, pick mushrooms and smell fir trees on it. IF WEYCO, Hancock, etc let me do the same I say give them their tax break.

That's not what I'm saying at all. My point is FEASIBILITY. If you have 1000 acres of land and you are going to pay taxes based on a $4500/acre assessment. Are you A) going to choose to grow timber, which will tie that land up for 40 years while you are paying thousands a year per acre while it sits idle. Only to also pay an excise tax on the timber when you log it? Which means you probably will lose money in the invesment. Or B) sell it to a developer/ sell parcels, in which case you could probably turn a profit? That's my point. It would not be feasible to run a timber operation. Also, I'm not just talking about the big guys.

By the way, of your 7 acres were for timber only the land would qualify as "timberland" and be eligible for the tax break...

sent from my typewriter

Geez, it is like talking to a stump. Nobody said anything about a $4500/acre valuation for timberland. I'm talking about using the threat to get something in return for this tax break. No timberland is worth that much but it sure is worth more then $150/acre. Maybe it stays at $150/acre if the public can enjoy it and $500/acre if it is closed. Still a heck of a deal for the land owner.
I think you are missing the boat on developing this land. They are doing that right now and have been for a long time. They probably would sell every last acre but it would flood the market.
That said I don't want to tax them out  of business. I just expect something in return for them paying less tax then other landowners. Look at it this way, if they were paying on the full value of the land your tax would be less. State would get more money from them and need less from you. There are other ramifications to that scenario so I'm not advocating that but maybe a two tiered land valuation. Timberland; you get a good tax break. Timberland open to the public; you get an even  better break.

And no our 7 acres doesn't qualify. Needs to be 20 acres I understand plus we live on 1 acre of the parcel so that disqualifies it too.

[kentrek]

kinda interesting every one is hot on the tax issue with the tree corporation but forget about the other big corporation out there..the weyerhaeuser tax burden is negligible compared to the culmination of the other big corporations who go through loop holes


just get rich an buy thousands of acres so you wont need to go on their land..this is america anyone can put in the effort an make millions..right ??

[bobcat]

It will be a sad day when it gets to the point where it takes millions of dollars just to have a place to hunt.

[kentrek]

It will be a sad day when it gets to the point where it takes millions of dollars just to have a place to hunt.

not millions but look at the road this state/country is going down.. access will be a supply in demand game (look how much people will pay to hunt) which is not good news for the lower class folks

[Humptulips]

It will be a sad day when it gets to the point where it takes millions of dollars just to have a place to hunt.

not millions but look at the road this state/country is going down.. access will be a supply in demand game (look how much people will pay to hunt) which is not good news for the lower class folks

So true!  We may be witnessing the beginning of the end.