Vail/ PeEll tree farm permits

[grundy53]

Grundy, so do you not agree with the below quote?

If they buy land for $3000/acre how can anyone think it is OK to value that land for tax puposes at $150/acre unless the public is shown some benefit. If they want it to be just dollars and cents so be it, their choice.

It isn't for public access. It is because the land becomes basically useless for the next  40 years ( while the trees grow). The state makes the difference up when Weyerhaeuser PAYS THE EXCISE TAX on the harvested timber. So they end up pay more taxes. Same as a wheat farmer in eastern Washington (who isn't forced to allow public access).

sent from my typewriter

You don't understand the excise tax on timber. It applies to all timber sold regardless of if it comes off a tree farm or not. We sold timber off our land, 7 acres, not tree farm status, no tax break. The land has a tax valuation of $4500/acre. The adjoining property is timberland but the same type land. It has a tax valuation of $150/acre.
We pay the same exact percentage tax when timber is sold. To say the timber excise tax makes up for the timberland tax break is not true. It works out to be  a seperate tax that applies to all who sell timber.

I bet 90 percent of timber comes off of timber lands. Your example is the exception not the rule. You aren't tying up thousands of acres making them basically worthless for 40 years at  a time.  7 acres is  not even a drop in the hat....

sent from my typewriter

So basically you're saying it's Ok to tax me more because I am the little guy? My land is growing trees. How is it any more usable then WEYCOs growing trees?
OK, you're right. I can walk out, hunt, pick mushrooms and smell fir trees on it. IF WEYCO, Hancock, etc let me do the same I say give them their tax break.

That's not what I'm saying at all. My point is FEASIBILITY. If you have 1000 acres of land and you are going to pay taxes based on a $4500/acre assessment. Are you A) going to choose to grow timber, which will tie that land up for 40 years while you are paying thousands a year per acre while it sits idle. Only to also pay an excise tax on the timber when you log it? Which means you probably will lose money in the invesment. Or B) sell it to a developer/ sell parcels, in which case you could probably turn a profit? That's my point. It would not be feasible to run a timber operation. Also, I'm not just talking about the big guys.

By the way, of your 7 acres were for timber only the land would qualify as "timberland" and be eligible for the tax break...

sent from my typewriter

Geez, it is like talking to a stump. Nobody said anything about a $4500/acre valuation for timberland. I'm talking about using the threat to get something in return for this tax break. No timberland is worth that much but it sure is worth more then $150/acre. Maybe it stays at $150/acre if the public can enjoy it and $500/acre if it is closed. Still a heck of a deal for the land owner.
I think you are missing the boat on developing this land. They are doing that right now and have been for a long time. They probably would sell every last acre but it would flood the market.
That said I don't want to tax them out  of business. I just expect something in return for them paying less tax then other landowners. Look at it this way, if they were paying on the full value of the land your tax would be less. State would get more money from them and need less from you. There are other ramifications to that scenario so I'm not advocating that but maybe a two tiered land valuation. Timberland; you get a good tax break. Timberland open to the public; you get an even  better break.

And no our 7 acres doesn't qualify. Needs to be 20 acres I understand plus we live on 1 acre of the parcel so that disqualifies it too.

Well, we must be 2 stumps having a conversation then... First off I was using the $4500/acre as an example... obviously. 2) you are making my point by saying they are already selling land off to developers. As soon as it makes more profit selling the land then the timber they will sell the land. How many people on here can drive through a neighborhood and say "I used to hunt here before it was houses". Hence why it would be bad to raise their taxes. As far as using it as a threat... I wouldn't be too confident in threatening a large corporation look how that has turned out in this state. They leave. Taking jobs with them. I would vaguely agree with your 2 tiered tax scenario. However, instead of tax penalties it should be incentives. Just my 2 cents.

[Humptulips]

Yea, they'll leave and take all their land with them.

[grundy53]

Yea, they'll leave and take all their land with them.

Obviously they won't take it with them. They will sell it to developers or other entities and you will have ZERO access.

[grundy53]

Not to mention the most important aspect. If they left the state there would be a LOT of folks that would lose their job. I don't think I would want that on my conscience...

[Basket Rack]

Yea, they'll leave and take all their land with them.

Obviously they won't take it with them. They will sell it to developers or other entities and you will have ZERO access.

Exactly, it will be sold, yeah some to developers but the even bigger threat is to conservation groups and there are many of them with lots of money that would like nothing more than to not allow you or I any hunting access.  Do not think that these groups are not in constant contact with timber companies looking for land investment opportunities. 

There are plenty of small woodlot owners in my area of Lewis county that have some nice hunting ground that do not allow access, should there taxes be raised too?? There are also many farmers in my area with lots of elk in their fields every fall that do not allow any public hunting, should we also look at changing there tax structure as well.  I am by no means in favor of paying for access.  Weyco's Vail tree farm butts up against my property, I now can not walk out my back door to hunt without a permit, I am not happy about it at all.  However, I am even less in favor of more taxes on timber companies or anyone else who has the right to do what they want access wise with the property they own.

[The Gobble-stopper]

I understand all the taxes talk, but isnt it our right to play their game right back. They sock it to us to hunt on their land. How bout all of us going to our lumber yards and demanding that we will only buy non-weyerhauser lumber? Seems like if they want to hurt our pocket book, then that must be what they want back. So maybe we should do the same to them. A few months of that and they will lose more than the $125,000 they will make off the hunters. Somewhere I heard we were suppose to do unto others as they do unto us....

[Alan K]

How bout all of us going to our lumber yards and demanding that we will only buy non-weyerhauser lumber?

Good luck with that.  Even all of the SFI and FSC certification hasn't added one cent to the value people are willing to pay for those boards versus non-certified boards. 

[fireweed]

I understand all the taxes talk, but isnt it our right to play their game right back. They sock it to us to hunt on their land. How bout all of us going to our lumber yards and demanding that we will only buy non-weyerhauser lumber? Seems like if they want to hurt our pocket book, then that must be what they want back. So maybe we should do the same to them. A few months of that and they will lose more than the $125,000 they will make off the hunters. Somewhere I heard we were suppose to do unto others as they do unto us....

Great Idea.  Home Depot buys a lot of Weyco. lumber.  We can vote with our dollars.  Make sure you write to the CEO of Home Depot, and explain why you now buy Sierra Pacific Lumber (they don't charge yet) vs. Weyco.  Unfortunately lots of companies don't have mills anymore, just land and sell their logs to Weyco., Hampton, or Sierra Pacific.
 
Also the mentioned SFI and SFC certification programs are an avenue of pressure.  Weyco. is part of SFI (Sustainable Forestry Initiative) Every third party certification has a section dealing with cultural resources and recreation.  SFI is pretty wishy-washy and companies get by with some statement like "we will consider cultural resources and recreation in our management decisions".  I would argue they have not considered the cultural/historic/economic impacts on rural communities.  If enough people contact and complain to SFI especially reps and community leaders, it may lead to an SFI review and put additional pressure on them to reconsider. They have a complaint and public inquiry section on their website.  Make sure reps. know about this process.
http://www.sfiprogram.org/
Weyco. has a "sustainable forestry" executive, too.  Go to their website to get HER name-contact. She's in Vancouver, Wa.

[blackhorn]

I noticed while checking out the WeyCo web site that they have Facebook and Twitter accounts, think they would listen?

[fireweed]

Absolutely,
The industry is constantly scouring the press for items of interest.  Even one or two letters will get their attention.    On a similar issue I was dealing with Weyco and got the typical firm "NO".  I got two Counties to send Weyco. an official letter asking them to cooperate on the project.  Next thing I know, got a phone call.  The no had become a YES.  But they also blacklisted me, and told me to "lay off the pressure" so the more people that speak up the better.

[Goshawk]

All this talk is USELESS UNLESS YOU CALL/WRITE YOUR STATE REPRESENTATIVES!

Crush it hard now, or sit back and watch it happen!

[headshot5]

Humptulips

And no our 7 acres doesn't qualify. Needs to be 20 acres I understand plus we live on 1 acre of the parcel so that disqualifies it too

If it is not already filed as "open space," do so.  Needs to be minimum of 5 acres, you should qualify.  1 Acre will be for your house etc, and 6 for open space.

http://dor.wa.gov/docs/pubs/prop_tax/openspace.pdf

My family has had zero problems changing property over to open space in Pacific County.

edit: sent you a PM with additional information. 

[Northway]

Yea, they'll leave and take all their land with them.

Obviously they won't take it with them. They will sell it to developers or other entities and you will have ZERO access.

Exactly, it will be sold, yeah some to developers but the even bigger threat is to conservation groups and there are many of them with lots of money that would like nothing more than to not allow you or I any hunting access.  Do not think that these groups are not in constant contact with timber companies looking for land investment opportunities. 

There are plenty of small woodlot owners in my area of Lewis county that have some nice hunting ground that do not allow access, should there taxes be raised too?? There are also many farmers in my area with lots of elk in their fields every fall that do not allow any public hunting, should we also look at changing there tax structure as well.  I am by no means in favor of paying for access.  Weyco's Vail tree farm butts up against my property, I now can not walk out my back door to hunt without a permit, I am not happy about it at all.  However, I am even less in favor of more taxes on timber companies or anyone else who has the right to do what they want access wise with the property they own.

Conservation groups with the kind of pull to purchase or put thousands of acres of timberland under easement are not anti-hunting. How many acres of land has DOW or CBD put under easement? Not much.........

Groups like The Land Conservancy or Forterrra don't even have a political platform regarding hunting. The Rocky Mountain Elk foundation has put 30,000 acres under easement in Oregon (only a few acres in WA, however). I can't think of a single anti-hunting organization that owns or has put more than a couple hundred acres under easement. 

[PolarBear]

You will have to go to China to boycott the sale of a lot of their wood.  A little boycott from a few hunters will go unnoticed by Weyco.

[fireweed]

China gets the junk, Japan gets the cream, but the bulk of Weyco. timber goes to Weyco mills and ends up at Home Depot where YOU can choose to buy it or choose to buy another brand of 2X4 like Sierra Pacific.