bullet drop?educate me

[kramman]

i was hoping someone w/ a little more knowledge could help me out.im going to wyoming in 3 weeks so i bought a new scope for my browning abolt 270 and changed to shooting 130gr. remington core lokt bullets from the 150gr.Ive always shot the core lokt because that is the bullet my gun shoots the best.i switched to the 130 because we are hunting the eastern plains of wy.and it is supposed to be a flat shootinground.my ?i sighted in my scope to be 3inches high at 100.i stretched it out to 200and iam getting  absolutely no drop iam still 3 inches high ?can anyone explain this to me?the ballistics say i should be dead on at 200 if im 3 high at 100!also is the 130gr. to lite for mule deer out to 300? what kind of drop do you think i will be getting at 300yds.thanks kram

[Tony 270WSM]

http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx

Just enter all the data you have and want it set for, and bingo!

[270Shooter]

Depends on the B.C of your bullet. But I would say at 3 inches high you should about dead on a 300 yards.

[demontang]

Here is what remington said the 130gr core-lokt out of a 270 will do.


Cartridge Information
Index Number Cartridge Type           Weight (grs.)     Bullet Style           Primer No.    Ballistic Coefficient
R270W2        Remington® Express®     130              PSP Core-Lokt®    9 1/2                  0.336

 
Velocity (ft/sec)
CartridgeType               Bullet               Muzzle   100    200    300     400    500
Remington® Express®   130 PSP CL       3060     2776   2510  2259   2022   1801

 
Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type           Bullet                 Muzzle    100     200      300      400       500
Remington® Express® 130 PSP CL         2702      2225    1818    1472    1180      936

 
Short-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type            Bullet                  50       100    150     200     250     300
Remington® Express® 130 PSP CL           0.1      0.6     zero    -1.8    -5.1    -9.8

 
Long-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type            Bullet                  100     150      200     250     300     400     500
Remington® Express® 130 PSP CL           1.5      1.4      zero     -2.8 -  7.0    -20.9   -43.3
 

[kramman]

yeah deamontang thats the same info i saw. it just doesnt explain why imnot getting any drop i cant figure it out even though im not complaining.
what about 1475ft lbs at 300 is this to lite for a big muley?i dont think so if it is put in the right spot.just wondering what some other opinions are.
thanks kram 

[300rum]

That's not too light, you will be fine.  the rule of thumb is around 900-1000ft lbs minimum.

[300UltraMagShooter]

Anyone know if there is a way to calculate a bdc reticle for a 300 rem ultra mag?  I just got a nikon scope for my rifle, but I don't know how to use it without just guessing/practicing.  Living in the city makes practice a little tuff...   

[JoshT]

At 100 yards the bullet is 3" high... and rising. The bullet reaches its apex at around 150 yards where it's 3.5" high... then it begins to decend... landing back at 3" high at the 200 yard mark. It will be dead on at 275... 1.5" low at 300 yards... and around 12" low at 400.

These are generic numbers for a 130 grainer at 3100fps... you should shoot the round at those ranges to verify the exact drop.

The generic chart looks like this:
100 = +3"
200 = +3"
300 = -1.5"
400 = -12.5"
500 = -30"

[DOUBLELUNG]

If you're 3" high at 100 AND 200 yards, your bullet is hitting higher than 3" above point of aim between 100 and 200 yards.  You're going to spend at least 30 hours round trip, $800+ on gas, a $312 tag, etc., etc.  Take a couple of hours to re-sight in with the new ammo out to 300 - or go back to the 150gr.  Right now, all you know is where you are at 100 and 200 yards; have a pretty fair chance of missing a 150 yard shot; and will be absolutely guessing beyond 200.  

That said, that bullet's fine for a 300yd shot on a big muley - but only if you know where your bullet is hitting at 300 yards.  There is NO EXCUSE for taking a 300 yard shot at an animal, if you haven't shot paper to at least 300 yards.  

If you're going to depend on calculated ballistics without even shooting the gun at that range, at least lower your 100yd point of impact to 1.5 instead of 3 inches high, and see if you're zeroed at 200 like the ballistic chart states.  You could then be somewhat confident of dropping no more than 7", if holding to a 300yd max. range.  If you're going that route, I hope you are using a rangefinder, otherwise all you'll be doing is spraying and praying beyond 200 yards.

[EastWaViking]

If you're 3" high at 100 AND 200 yards, your bullet is hitting higher than 3" above point of aim between 100 and 200 yards.  You're going to spend at least 30 hours round trip, $800+ on gas, a $312 tag, etc., etc.  Take a couple of hours to re-sight in with the new ammo out to 300 - or go back to the 150gr.  Right now, all you know is where you are at 100 and 200 yards; have a pretty fair chance of missing a 150 yard shot; and will be absolutely guessing beyond 200.  

That said, that bullet's fine for a 300yd shot on a big muley - but only if you know where your bullet is hitting at 300 yards.  There is NO EXCUSE for taking a 300 yard shot at an animal, if you haven't shot paper to at least 300 yards.  

If you're going to depend on calculated ballistics without even shooting the gun at that range, at least lower your 100yd point of impact to 1.5 instead of 3 inches high, and see if you're zeroed at 200 like the ballistic chart states.  You could then be somewhat confident of dropping no more than 7", if holding to a 300yd max. range.  If you're going that route, I hope you are using a rangefinder, otherwise all you'll be doing is spraying and praying beyond 200 yards.

   nicely said!

[norsepeak]

Josh,

I don't mean to be argumentative, but you stated that the bullet is 3" high and rising....actually the bullet never rises above the centerline of the barell,  What is happening is that based on your zero, your POA is lower than the arc of the bullet below the bore. 

The 270 will be just fine for mulies at those ranges, I use a 25-06 with 120 gr. on them and takes them down just fine. 

[demontang]

Ok, I looked a little harder at my ballistics tables and you should be sighted in for about 265-275yd. I would go back to the range and make sure that this is right before going out and shooting at an animal.

range (yards)                 Muzzle    50         100     200      300     400      500
Velocity (fps)                 3060      2916   2777    2510    2259    2023    1802
Energy (ft.-lb.)               2703     2454   2225     1819    1473    1181    937
Trajectory (265 yd. zero) -1.5        1.2     3.0       2.9     -2.6    -15.1   -36.0
Come Up in MOA              -1.5     -2.6    -3.1      -1.6      0.6      3.4       6.6

[JoshT]

Josh,

I don't mean to be argumentative, but you stated that the bullet is 3" high and rising....actually the bullet never rises above the centerline of the barell,  What is happening is that based on your zero, your POA is lower than the arc of the bullet below the bore. 
 

In one facet you're correct... the bullet does not "rise" above the centerline of the bore. BUT, the centerline of the bore is aimed UP into the line of sight. The line of sight (where the crosshairs are) is always flat... so the bullet is fired up into the line of sight... then it drops back down... so, there are actually two points on the bullets flight where it crosses the line of sight (or two ranges where it is 'zeroed'). In this case it is zeroed at about 40 yards (on the way up [or "rising"] into the line of sight)... and 275 yards (where it falls back down into the line of sight).

Here's a diagram to show what I'm talking about... I'm sure we're on the same page... just a matter of semantics.

[Intruder]

3" high at a 100 is too high IMO.  Sight the bloody thing 2.5" high at 100 yards and you'll have a +/- 3" point blank range out to almost 300 yards.

270 w/ a 130 grn is fine for mule deer.  You put it in the vitals behind the front shoulder and it's going down.     

[Colville]

I know you are shooting Rem. But Federal as a table where you can change your zero and other stats affecting the Bal's.

http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/ballistics_application.aspx

The 2006 version of that software says 130 gn nosler for 300 zero is: 3.6 high 100, 4.4 high 200, 0 300.

That jibes closely to your 3/3 numbers considering patterns aren't usually better than 1 inch for making estimates. You'd be on as others have said out beyond 250 and less than 300 for a zero.

As long as you are restricting yourself to that range the physics simply can't let you down too bad. 3 high at 200 leaves a pretty narrow window of outcomes at 300 unless you've found a box of factory ammo doing substantially more or less FPS than it's supposed to. It's just math.

The problem is we don't shoot one hole patterns so if you have 1 moa at 100 your outcomes at 300 should be someplace between +1 and -6 depending on the MOA you hold at 100. I miss by an inch on the low side, a +2 at 100 in the field you'll be -6 at 300. be inaccurate an inch high and you could be +1 at 300. Of course if you are off a full inch from POA  you are really shooting loser than moa, but you get the idea.

I'm not in disagreement with the prior about shooting our outfit at the range you intend to use itl. It's solid advice. But if you "know" where you put it at 200 there's only so many possible outcomes at 300.

[kramman]

allright im getting various opinions here.let me see if i can answer some of the guestions here.yes i do have a range finder.i would love to shoot out to 300but where in the vacinity of tacoma is there a long range.ive been shooting out at tacoma sportsmen and their range only goes to 200.i dont plan on spraying and praying as some of you have suggested i have way too much respect for myself and the animal i am hunting that is why iam on here asking for some help from those who might know more then i.i plan on shooting 3 or 4 more times before i go but besides going out to the woods and trying to find an area where i can shoot to 300 i am pretty limited.plus i think the rifle hunters in my area would not appr. me sighting in my rifle right now in the middle of the woods.
kram

[demontang]

I would just sight it in for 200yd and be done with it. You would be 7" low at 300 which isnt that bad and would be an easy hold over.

[Curly]

I sighted in my scope to be 3inches high at 100.  I stretched it out to 200 and I am getting  absolutely no drop I am still 3 inches high?

I'd leave it where you've got it set now.  According to the ballistic table that Demontang posted, you should be set pretty close to what the table shows.  The table shows 3" high at 100yd and 3" high at 200 yd; then about 3" low at 300. 

range (yards)                 Muzzle    50         100     200      300     400     
Trajectory (265 yd. zero) -1.5        1.2     3.0       2.9     -2.6    -15.1

Like someone already said, you're going to be about 3.5" high around 150yds, but that's not too bad.  Anything out to 300 yards, you can just hold right on and you will be right in there. 

[Colville]

If you can consistently hit at 3 high at 200, you're done. The ballistics are what they are. Out to 300 you'll be no more than a couple inches under. Aim dead center no matter what range and whether a couple inches over or under your POA you're dead on. This way you don't have to do hold over you are point and shoot out to 300. Opinions vary but if I can get the whole trajectory of the bullet from barrel to my max range all within the kill zone of the animal and all from one point of aim on the game I take all the guesswork out of where to  hold (slope not withstanding). Of course this only works for me because I top out at 300 to 350. Guys who shoot much longer range have to work a different system.

I was posting when Curly did, What he said. 

[littletoes]

Sorry to be the stick in the mudd here, but.....

Regardless of what ANY program says, you SHOULD NOT shoot at game unless you have had the opportunity to try that very load/rifle combo at said distance.

If you can't get out to 300, then don't shoot at game at 300, or beyond.

Funny how us long-range guys stress this....maybe its because we work so hard at getting our own come-ups.

[kramman]

littletoes i would love to shoot out to 300 but i believe my options are limited on finding a range that i can shoot that far.
if someone knows of one w/in an hour of tacoma please let me know.if i can not find a range to shoot out to 300 i believe being 3 hi at 200 will be adaquate out to 300.i personally believe no one should shoot beyond 300 my 

[JoshT]

Funny how us long-range guys stress this....maybe its because we work so hard at getting our own come-ups.

Excellent comment!

[demontang]

I would make some time before season to go out and shot 300yd's if you leave the scope the way it is, there is a big dif between 200 and 300 when you are shooting of sticks and your heart is pounding. I was just out shooting 650yd tonight and learned how to use my mill dots better at higher powers. I think with long range shooting your can always learn something.

[high country]

from my expierience the charts are rarely more then close. I have futzed with em' while getting my 6.5-06 mapped. I found I had to screw with my scope height to get the traj to work. I shoot through a chrono with a very accurate rifle.

imo, buy up some bullets and time and go shoot your gun at known ranges in conditions you will hunt. that will pay huge dividens.

as for 130's......I shoot cheapo speer 130btsp's from my 270win. I am all for snazzy premium boolits, but every 130gr bullet in .277 dia was made to work at 3000-3100fps, so I can see no need to change. the deer I killed last week, a big bodied deer was killed with said bullet and at a pretty long range. he never took a step. I have killed big bears with the same bullet at 50ish yards and they too died right quick.

so while I think looking over bal charts is a good move, realize that it is only gonna get you within a minute or two.......two minutes at 500yds is enough to miss.

[dbllunger]

WOW,   Talk about confusion.  It is not that complicated.  All you need to know is your bullet BC (Ballistic Coeficient), Sight Height (Aim point above center of bore/barrel), and how fast the bullet is going (FPS).  I will give you any data you need as long as you and your rifle can shoot a true .5" group at 100.  Any rifle/shooter combo that is less acurate the data totally falls apart at range.  Sight in at what I give you and simply look at your data strip and drill em.  Let the gun geeks (guys like me) do all the shooting and work and just copy them.  I have made a lot of cash on bets based on math, and you do not need (but should) shoot at every range you might need to shoot at.  All you really need is data, accurate rifle, and good shooter.  2+2 =4 no matter what we try to make it different.     

[high country]

while you are doing the math, take a peek at the possibilitys of tangent change due to soa mis calculation in the sight height/angle. I agree it is 100% math, but joe shoots 100 rounds a year has to get mighty damn lucky to hit the numbers bang on first try.

so pretty much take a trig class or buy some bullets, most guys have the 3 hours to bang shells over a math class.

[littletoes]

dbllunger,  holding 1/2" at 100 yards is not the same as .5 MOA at 300 or farther. A rifle capable of one, may not hold the same at extended ranges. Yep, quite a few rifles do, but there are many more that just won't.
For instance, I have one that will hold 1/4 MOA to about 200 yards, but opens up after that, with another I've printed a 2 3/4" 5 shot group at 600 yards...go figure. Each is an individual.

kramman, there is Paul Bunyan at Puyallup (spelling? I've only been there for matches). That range goes to 600 yards. I don't think thats too far from 'ya. Just gotta look man. Make it a point to get out and actually shoot that far, and you just might be surprised.

I can just about make a safe bet too....most that just want to go out and shoot at game that far, with a piece of paper from somebody off of the net that has "come-ups" on it, and have never actually shot that far....AIN'T GONNA HIT *censored*. And if they do?? Pure-D-Luck, not skill.
And if/when you go to a range and shoot that far, shoot like you would in the woods. Standing, Sitting, kneeling, or prone. 
No benches, unless you're going to haul one to your hunting spot and shoot from it too.

THEN you just might come under the relization that if you should shoot at game animals at said ranges.


Time for the Positive?
I use a 10" steel gong...if you can hit that, regarless of range, your ready to hunt.
My 12 year old son hits it easily at 300, but we practice at that range. I use either the steel or clay pidgeons from 600 to 850. The wind can be a challenge, for sure.



The bottom hits are from my son using the wrong spot on his cross hairs, the two touching in the middle are from my .308, the others are my son's after a quick reference check from dad.
He shoots a .243 using 90 grn Nosler Bt's. He ain't so big (like dad I guess), so I wanted a light load that wouldn't beat him or his mom up. Yep, they both have thier own 700's in .243....
Good Shooting.

[norsepeak]

Bottom line is you gotta go shoot the distances you want to hunt...period.  Ballistics calculators can be very accurate, but they don't take into consideration differeces within each round or the ever changing atmospheric conditions...the only way to figure those variables out is to go shoot.  I've got a long range rifle (270 allen mag) that shoots .5 moa all day long, and a ballistics calculator that'll figure out exterior ballistics all day long, but when you shoot over a canyon or across a hill at long range things can get a little squirrely, and without actually doing that you would never know it.  When we shoot our 1200yard range, the calculator only gets you close...but not close enough for a cold bore one shot kill.  Having gone out and spent a lot of time shooting and fine tuning...means the gallon milk jug of water is in serious trouble on the cold bore 1200 yard mark!  And it sure is fun!

[Selkirk]

Kramman,

This is a little off topic but I would definitely do some shooting upon arrival in Wyoming.  Your point of impact can change dramatically on the high plains of Wyoming compared to Tacoma.  My buddy and I both had to re-zero on a Wyoming trip a few years back.  We also had been shooting at low elevation ranges in western Washington.  I always recommend checking your zero after a long drive, flight, etc.  One more thing, do some shooting at close range.  Not all wyoming game is shot at 300 yards.

Good luck.

Selkirk

[dbllunger]

OK...I missed the topic obviously.   I agree with the fact that you can not shoot only at 100yds, and then expect to go out and shoot an animal at 400yds.  There is a substantial difference in reality between 100 and 400.  I was only talking raw ballistics.  Yes you need to shoot at range to get used to long range shooting.  I just remember one training session with 35 shooters on line.  None had 600yd dope/come ups/clicks, or whatever you want to call them.  Did the math and only two shooters hit the 12" plate 5/5.  Oh and one of the shooters that did complete the series had never shot past 300yds. Only a guess will answer what two.   Accurate rifle, steady shooter, and simply hold the cross hairs in the middle of the target.   Personally I think 90% of the shooters/hunters have never really shot an accurate rifle.  So add a truely accurate rifle with a scope, and most shooters are good to 300 any day.  Now add in real world stress, excitement, field position they are still good IMO if they just shoot.  Oh, how many people have really shot a gun with a 2 or 3# tight trigger?  Just like before very few.  All of this adds up to accurate shooting. 
     Give me a day or two and I am totally confident that I could take any shooter with average skills, and they would drill a 400yd 10" plate the first shot and never take a shot past 100yds until the 400.  This could be done from a bench or hunting position.  Yes prone is a hunting position, and actually preferred by most.    The offer is there so take me up on it after the second week of December.  Yes you will shoot my rifle (Stock facory gun) if yours is not accurate enough.  If I am wrong the only negative is ammo burned and a better shooter.  If I am correct then at least admit that paper is a great teacher. 

[littletoes]

I'd like to see that challenge, the only differance, no bench, and they have to shoot thier rifle EXACTLY how THEY have it set up for hunting, with the same gear they use in a hunting situation. No bipod? NO BIPOD.

First shot-no pointers, see how they do on thier own. 12" steel is fine with me, no help with come-ups/drop chart, as is true for most shooters out there right now.

I've shot with experienced shooters to novice, and many is the time I've been amazed at how little the average shooter knows. Its also surprising how many folks just figure because they are men, they can pick up a gun and be some kind of expert, and won't listen to any advice. Others are all ears thirsting for any info that can be provided.

Most shooters don't know how to use a sling for support, body positions most stable for shooting long range. Remember, there is a small game called High Power where slings are the only thing used for support, beside position, iron sights (unless its an "any-any" match),  to 1000 yards. 

[high country]

good tip on the sling, BUT be careful of which rifle you apply it to. a floated gun with a cheap stock may do more harm then good.

I shoot a ultralight rifle and am scared to get into my sling on long shots...a bit of adrenalin makes me REALLY strong, and my little milk straw barrel is no match

[dbllunger]

LT this is with no ill feelings at all.  This is a forum, and I intend no ill will nor do I have a negative opinion on what others say or have said on this topic. 
     My take on the original start of this thread was how difficult it is for a person to be able to shoot at distance (400 yds) when they only have 100yds to practice.  Others were putting in ballistic advice, but the main push was still saying that it should not be one unless a person had the ability to shoot actual ranges.  I just disagree with that basic negative premise.  Now I would prefer a person be able to shoot in real world situations and ranges, but always is not needed to be able to consitently hit at range. 
     Please don't put restrictions and other limitations on what a hunter would really have to use in the field.  You are intentionally limiting their shooting ability to justify your side of the argument.  All good arguments are that way, and I am saying they should be allowed to shoot what they would normally have hunting.  I also very clearly noted it required an accurate rifle, and accurate is .5 or less at 100.  I shoot off a bipod when I can, and have my ballistic chart taped to my stock.  Why take away any advantage a person has to make a one shot kill.  I think limiting my self or reducing my ability is the exact opposite of what we should do.  Please let us not have the argument about using equipment to increase your shooting skill.  If you are shooting a black powder smoothbore musket, era sights, match lit, with patched round lead balls, then you have the ability somewhat to use the equipment argument.  If not then to me it would be hypocritical to speak negatively about anyone else using better equipment to shoot better. 
      Do I think a average shooter could take a rifle with a $50.00 scope, 2-3" groups, unsteady rest, and be able to consitently hit a 12" target at even 200yds?   NO I DON'T, but that was not what I thought the discussion was about.  Again, my offer still stands that within one or two days I could help the average shooter using an accurate rifle hit a 10-12" steel plate at 400yds.  As an exhample for me that would be my zero point with my Elk rifle so even easier.  Worst thing that could happen is two people get to shoot, and maybe both will become better shooters for it.  I am also humble to admit I could not fulfill my belief.  But all I ask in return is the admission a person can learn to shoot at longer ranges by learning at 100yds.   

[JoshT]

  But all I ask in return is the admission a person can learn to shoot at longer ranges by learning at 100yds.   

You can't learn squat about shooting at 400 by shooting at 100... that's just the facts. Even a moderate breeze (10 mph) will eat you lunch at 400... but does almost nothing at 100. Couple that with a 'theoretical' drop chart (remember now... you can't verify any of the data at actuall ranges)... then, add in field conditions (buck fever... etc.)... and I'd give the average guy (only practicing at 100 yards) about a 10% chance of making a COLD BORE hit on a 12" target at 400 yards.

[Intruder]

 

While there has been a ton of good info provided the basic question that the fella was intrerested in had to do with sighting in his rifle to hunt mule deer with it.  By and large the gun and bullet he's using are going to be perfectly adequate for killing a deer out to 300 yards if sighted in properly.  At 2.5" high at a 100 yards most likely he (and probably most of us) would not be able in a hunting scenario to shoot the +/- 3" variances out to the point blank range.  Even if the balistic calculation is off slightly, unless he's really pushing the envelope and taking shots well past 300 yards it's not going to make a hill of beans worth of difference.  I'm going to assume he will do adequate practicing and use good jugdement on shot selection and leave it at that.     

[Curly]

Intruder..........well said.   

[littletoes]

dblunger-NONE TAKEN!

I'd say, ANY practice, is GOOD practice.

This is to include at ANY range, including your own hallway just dry-firing. A lot can be learned just by doing that, and its very affordable!

My only point was to discourage folks from banging away at game animals, regardless of range.
To be honest, 300 yards is not that far, unless you just don't practice, have an unfamiliar rifle, or what have you.

I guess its about knowing your own limitations, and sticking too it, regardless of how aggravated one might become about the availability of even a shot at an animal. I know what thats like....

Just getting back for the day (Halloween-small children!), been elk hunting, and have heard a few guys that bang away at everything, it kinda puts a perspective on things.

[dbllunger]

I totally get it.  Just got back from our elk hunt.  Not bad 33% for camp, and if I had brought by rifle to look over the edge we would be 66%.  Stupid as we all know better.  Watched a two point for four days, and then what do you know he has a nasty bloody hip.  Totally screwed and will die because some moron shot him in the ass.  Why......because they looked and shot beyond what they were capable of.  Had they been able to actually shoot at range then they would have been able so to see at at that range.  Am I making a biased opinion?  Hell yes....I passed up a legal spike because I was not sure.  Fu%^&ng as&*^0es who can not leave the trigger alone.  Yes  I totally hijacked the thread but LB because 6 BL's and I'm on a roll.