4-point rule 117/121

[boneaddict]

 

[huntnnw]

Sitka... Have you ever lived in either of the units? It seems like you have never stepped foot in them.

[bearpaw]

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20130713/COLUMNISTS01/307130009/Antler-rule-points-buck-survival-issue

Good read about about APR.

I can see how that could happen with a 2pt rule, however, a 2 pt rule is definitely a different animal than a 4pt rule. I do have long term concerns with our 4pt rule. Once our herd numbers rebound I wonder if we'll see older 3 pt whiteys increase in numbers, really not many of them now. There are obviously many differences between NE WA and Vermont and between a 2pt rule and a 4pt rule. That's sort of like comparing apples to oranges, but I do think that the 5 year trial of the plan in these 2 units will provide info to make an educated decision about how to apply or not apply the rule in NE WA in the future. If it is decided to keep the rule then I hope they do it for another 5 year trial and not automatically forever. It's possible we may find that the rule is good for recovering a herd but not necessarily good for long term management. I really don't know, none of us know for sure at this time, but by trying the rule in 5 yr increments we can at least learn what works best.   

[Jonathan_S]

I feel just enough qualified to chime in on this thread.  I live in Spokane so not IN the units but I've hunted these units since I was ten and for the last six years I've spent an average of 2 months in the field in 117, 121, 113, etc. 

It seems the majority of people strongly opposed to APR in 117/121 are those who come over for hunting season and nothing more.   

I'd venture that a good amount of peoples' observations on the "herd" is something like this, "well I only saw three deer in 2007 but I shot a spike so the herd seemed fine to me.  I was there in 2012 with the APR and didn't see one single buck so the APR obviously doesn't work."   

[BULLBLASTER]

  I haven't talked to many people who live in or spend lots of time in these units not like the 4point rule. There are a few but the majority agrees that the herd is suffering and the Apr is a good attempt to help the herd.

[steen]

Im all for the 4pt or better rule! Wish they would start doing this to some of the blacktail units!

If you did this with blacktails you would end up with a lot of 2X3s and such that you can't shoot.  It happens sometimes with the mulies (huge 2 points).  Whitetails can be 4 points the first year with good feed.  With that said I am still a meat hunter first and then antlers.  I have passed on a few small bucks but meat in the freezer is better than tag soup!  You will definitely see bigger bucks if you maximize the points.

[Jonathan_S]

Here's what the four point APR has produced   

[grundy53]

Simple.  Way less hunters hitting the unit with the 4 point restriction.  Way less hunters equal way less harvest.

This is about deer population not hunter success.

     Sitka_Blacktail is acting as though the harvest numbers are directly tied to the population. 

Less deer were killed because dumb little spikes and forks can't be killed and escaped, it doesn't mean there were less deer in the unit.  Less people hunted the units.  Where's the SPIN emoticon?

How could anyone argue that the APR decreases the deer numbers, especially after two years?

Exactly!!! A 4 point whitetail is infinitely smarter then a spike whitetail. Therefore there are going to be a lot more bucks surviving. If anything I think sitka proved that the plan is working. More deer are surviving to live another year and bolster the herd.

[huntnnw]

he must of accidentally posted that...didnt realize it was proving mosts point on here

[Sitka_Blacktail]

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20130713/COLUMNISTS01/307130009/Antler-rule-points-buck-survival-issue

Good read about about APR.

Less older bucks and smaller antlers on the ones that do manage to survive. That pretty much sums it up.

I see they try pretty hard not to blame it on genetic filtering, but consider this. Evolution is not so much about sudden changes for no apparent reason. It's about passing on traits that help your survival chances such as coloring and size. Adaptability! It's why we end up with sub-species like Coues Whitetails. Smaller body size is better in the desert heat than large body mass. So when we make rules for harvesting game based on antler size, we are making antler size an important factor on whether an animal lives to pass on it's genes. If small antlers means an animal has a better chance to pass on it's genes, I guarantee you, more animals will have smaller antlers.

[grundy53]

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20130713/COLUMNISTS01/307130009/Antler-rule-points-buck-survival-issue

Good read about about APR.

Less older bucks and smaller antlers on the ones that do manage to survive. That pretty much sums it up.

I see they try pretty hard not to blame it on genetic filtering, but consider this. Evolution is not so much about sudden changes for no apparent reason. It's about passing on traits that help your survival chances such as coloring and size. Adaptability! It's why we end up with sub-species like Coues Whitetails. Smaller body size is better in the desert heat than large body mass. So when we make rules for harvesting game based on antler size, we are making antler size an important factor on whether an animal lives to pass on it's genes. If small antlers means an animal has a better chance to pass on it's genes, I guarantee you, more animals will have smaller antlers.

I would agree IF we were killing off all the big bucks. That isn't even close to happening. Big bucks are still doing the majority of the breeding.

[bearpaw]

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20130713/COLUMNISTS01/307130009/Antler-rule-points-buck-survival-issue

Good read about about APR.

Less older bucks and smaller antlers on the ones that do manage to survive. That pretty much sums it up.

I see they try pretty hard not to blame it on genetic filtering, but consider this. Evolution is not so much about sudden changes for no apparent reason. It's about passing on traits that help your survival chances such as coloring and size. Adaptability! It's why we end up with sub-species like Coues Whitetails. Smaller body size is better in the desert heat than large body mass. So when we make rules for harvesting game based on antler size, we are making antler size an important factor on whether an animal lives to pass on it's genes. If small antlers means an animal has a better chance to pass on it's genes, I guarantee you, more animals will have smaller antlers.

Comparing a two point rule and 4 pt rule is like comparing apples and oranges for the reasons which have been mentioned. Hasn't science proven that it takes many generations to change genetics? After having only small bucks in their herd for decades PA adopted a 4pt rule and is actually producing better quality bucks than they have in decades.

[snowpack]

Comparing a two point rule and 4 pt rule is like comparing apples and oranges for the reasons which have been mentioned. Hasn't science proven that it takes many generations to change genetics? After having only small bucks in their herd for decades PA adopted a 4pt rule and is actually producing better quality bucks than they have in decades.

Many generations for mutations to successfully enter genetics.  But you can change genetics very quickly.  Small pox changed genetics of the American Indians rather quickly.  During the Napoleonic Wars, many of the countries involved rounded up all the tallest men from villages to enter service.  Most died and caused the average heights of some countries to go down a bit.

[bearpaw]

The only danger regarding horns I can imagine with WT in NE WA would a loss of eyeguards if we killed every buck every year with eyeguards, the handful of remaining WT with no eyeguards and all the younger bucks would do all the breeding. Those young bucks actually have the same genetics as older bucks and I think our older bucks survive better than younger bucks in much of these units so I don't see a problem.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Army_Depot

Originally the white deer were protected and only brown deer were shot. Being white meant you had a better chance at survival, thus passing on your genes. This is how the white deer herd of Senaca army base was created.

Dogs came from wolves, but selective breeding by humans has created hundreds of breeds of dogs from Chihuahua to St Bernard, only a few of which resemble wolves any more.

Antler restrictions are a form of selective breeding, especially when most hunts are before or during the rut.