4-point rule 117/121

[snowpack]

I used to get to hunt cull bucks back on a whitetail ranch.  Basically shot anything over 2 years old that was less than 8 pt or not outside the ears.  (killing off the smaller, not necessarily younger deer)  Didn't take too long before the average bucks were bigger and bigger.  Eventually not very many smaller bucks left to cull.

[huntnnw]

If you want more older, bigger bucks, why didn't they make it spike/2 pt for 5 years? Then all those young bucks with real potential would have been protected. You'd be seeing way more big bucks by now.

When was the last time you were over here for any length of time ?  When was the last time you hunted here ( 121/117 ) ?  When was the last time you were able to witness first hand what goes on here from season to season, year to year ?? When did you last count bucks before and after hunting season, especially those you would be familiar with and have pictures of ??

I have a strong suspicion you enjoy the sake of argument, any argument.

I asked the same question in this thread... No response. He's an armchair bio 300 miles away. All he does is argue. Now it's why didn't we shoot spikes and forks ? Another topic that just shows his ignorance to whitetails and the area here

[Sitka_Blacktail]

If you want more older, bigger bucks, why didn't they make it spike/2 pt for 5 years? Then all those young bucks with real potential would have been protected. You'd be seeing way more big bucks by now.

When was the last time you were over here for any length of time ?  When was the last time you hunted here ( 121/117 ) ?  When was the last time you were able to witness first hand what goes on here from season to season, year to year ?? When did you last count bucks before and after hunting season, especially those you would be familiar with and have pictures of ??

I have a strong suspicion you enjoy the sake of argument, any argument.

I asked the same question in this thread... No response. He's an armchair bio 300 miles away. All he does is argue. Now it's why didn't we shoot spikes and forks ? Another topic that just shows his ignorance to whitetails and the area here

Hah, where are your credentials? All you've got is an opinion just like me. Instead of being a smart alek, maybe you can explain to us in scientific terms why suggesting shooting spikes and forks instead of larger bucks is a bad idea as far as getting more larger bigger bucks into the population fast.

My opinion comes from watching antler restrictions at work in other areas, particularly moose restrictions in Alaska. They use a spike/fork 50 inch or either 3 or 4 brow tine restriction. The spike fork is because only about 40% of male moose start their first rack as a spike or a fork. This lets 60% of the males get into the protected under 50"  category and get a few years under their belt and a couple breeding seasons before they are legal again as a 50+ inch bull. The jury is still out on the eye guard restriction. It was put in as a safety net for shooting bulls that appear to be 50 inches but are too close to call, another way to be safely legal. But now in areas that get hit hard by hunters a lot of 50 inch bulls have only 2 brow guards. So it looks like it's changed the conformation of the antlers to a degree.  The other problem with the rule is a lot of sub legal bulls get shot and left to rot as people shoot first and measure second. This rule was put in place originally to up the bull/100 cow ratio because years of long any bull seasons had reduced the bull numbers in a lot of popular units to precarious numbers and the cows weren't getting bred or weren't getting bred in a timely manner. Timing is important because if calving season is stretched out, it gives predators a longer shot at the newborns in which case they get hammered more so than if they are all born in a short period. And newborns born later in the year have a harder time with their first winter.

All you guys who think you can stockpile females and hammer the males and you'll have more bucks/bulls to hunt should think again. What you end up with is a large herd of females that isn't all that productive. You need balance to have good herd dynamics. If you think having lots of younger males at the expense of the older males will keep the herd going great you need to think again. Number one, that's the opposite of how nature operates. In nature, lots of young are born, but the % that survive to carry on is fairly small. Nature only needs enough young animals to survive to replace animals that die of old age or predation. To have a robust herd with larger harvests, the harvests need to rely on younger animals of both sexes and older males and females. A good example would be Sweden's moose management.

This is from a study of herd dynamics in Sweden. "An increase in the proportion of young animals in the harvest will increase the proportion of adults and productive animals in the winter population, assuming a constant size after harvest." In Sweden, the number of calves in the average harvest is 30-50%. I doubt that would ever go over here as too many people have "don't kill the young and you'll have  more older animals". But in the same study you'll find this statement.  "a calf has relatively low impact on future population growth compared with an average female that has given birth for the first time."  And "productivity and hence population numbers are highly sensitive to changes in the sex-ratio among productive adults and to the age structure among adult females." In other words, If you want a large success rate, mimic nature and take lots of young animals and males, but leave a proper number of males to have a good male/female ratio, and as the productive females move into the unproductive years, make sure you have enough young females to replace them. Trying to save all your young animals, and putting all hunting pressure  hunting older male animals isn't the road to a dynamic herd.

And for all you guys wanting more large (trophy) animals. Here's a lesson from the Swedes. From the same study. "the highest trophy male yields were obtained by concentrating hunting pressure on yearling males and trophy males." In other words, exactly as I suggested earlier in this thread for deer. Take spikes and fork horns (early), and have a 5pt season (after the rut) .  And if you need to relieve hunting pressure, make hunters choose one hunt or the other, but not both.

And for the record, I've hunted over there the last two years and been successful both times, altho in unit 111. Have hunted 121 a bit, but I enjoy the public land better than the more private land units. Hunting is hunting with small nuances due to local conditions. This will be my 50th hunting season this year. I know a little.

[whacker1]

Sitka - your logic makes sense, but those are not the options that were within the whitetail study group. They had to make a plan that they could agree on and they came up with a temporary APR to see if it helps.   It is not my favorite plan, but I think it is better than doing nothing, which was some of the other options. 

[bearpaw]

If you want more older, bigger bucks, why didn't they make it spike/2 pt for 5 years? Then all those young bucks with real potential would have been protected. You'd be seeing way more big bucks by now.

I don't disagree, and this was talked about, but it was a more stringent option than was desired by the majority of stakeholders.

[jkoziol_85]

I like it! I think that is helping for the most part! But in my experiences of hunting these GMU's is it's not hard to find the deer and it's really hard to find the land to hunt on. Everything is so posted up there my father and huntin partner and all of kids when we were younger pretty much stopped going up in that area. I did go up last year and I had some really good experiences that you don't get with mule deer in the sage brush.

[huntnnw]

theres tons of nat forest and some IEP land

[PA BEN]

If you want more older, bigger bucks, why didn't they make it spike/2 pt for 5 years? Then all those young bucks with real potential would have been protected. You'd be seeing way more big bucks by now.

When was the last time you were over here for any length of time ?  When was the last time you hunted here ( 121/117 ) ?  When was the last time you were able to witness first hand what goes on here from season to season, year to year ?? When did you last count bucks before and after hunting season, especially those you would be familiar with and have pictures of ??

I have a strong suspicion you enjoy the sake of argument, any argument.

I asked the same question in this thread... No response. He's an armchair bio 300 miles away. All he does is argue. Now it's why didn't we shoot spikes and forks ? Another topic that just shows his ignorance to whitetails and the area here

huntnnw Not to bust your balls, "BUT", Sitka_Blacktail put where he lives on his profile. Where do you live? BTW, we all are armchair bio's to one degree or another. Out of 38 years of hunting white tails I've hunted 121 for 35 years. 2 years in the military and one year when I hunted the westside when I didn't have the time off work to come over. Only 2 of those years I didn't get a deer and that was my first 2 years of bow hunting. Remember you can't eat horns. Most years I started out hunting for the big guys but meat in the frizzier is more important to me. Now that I'm back I've talked to a lot of the locals and hands down they like the 4 point rule and hands down they would like to see kid's, seniors and disabled shoot any buck.
   

[huntnnw]

Lived here in 127/124 and 121 my whole life

[buckfvr]

AS close as it gets with the guys I know and hunt with is MAYBE youth permits for any buck.........................We all think its fine how it is.

[CedarPants]

Just wait till it goes to permit only like it did in the Palouse    Up here some don't like that they have to hold out for a 4point.  Down there, a lot of people can't hunt their own land.  We don't have it that bad up here comparatively

[buckfvr]

Just wait till it goes to permit only like it did in the Palouse    Up here some don't like that they have to hold out for a 4point.  Down there, a lot of people can't hunt their own land.  We don't have it that bad up here comparatively

 

My thought is its only a matter of a few more years before the late modern and archery are permit only, or closed period.  Unless ofcourse we are allowed to be proactive regarding predators......

[CedarPants]

Unless ofcourse we are allowed to be proactive regarding predators......

Thanks, I needed a good laugh this morning 

[BULLBLASTER]

Just wait till it goes to permit only like it did in the Palouse    Up here some don't like that they have to hold out for a 4point.  Down there, a lot of people can't hunt their own land.  We don't have it that bad up here comparatively

The palouse is otc for general season in october and archery and muzzy. Only late rifle is permit only. Everyone can hunt their own land every year.

[CedarPants]

Just wait till it goes to permit only like it did in the Palouse    Up here some don't like that they have to hold out for a 4point.  Down there, a lot of people can't hunt their own land.  We don't have it that bad up here comparatively

The palouse is otc for general season in october and archery and muzzy. Only late rifle is permit only. Everyone can hunt their own land every year.

I was implying during the rut