Most Versatile Hunting Dog

[AspenBud]

They are great dogs. I'm not sure why they aren't more popular other than they are a little more money than the average GSP or GWP. I just stumbled onto them when I was looking for a good water dog that was a pointer.
My dogs hit the water like this whether its 80 degrees or 18.

To be honest I keep coming back to this breed as a possible future dog. Probably because Pointers were such a heavy influence in making the breed and since I love Pointers...

As for notoriety, that's probably because people who breed them haven't pursued AKC recognition for fear of the same show/hunting split that has occurred with other pointing breeds. Never underestimate the akc marketing machine.

[Shannon]

All the breeders I know of will only sell to hunters. That limits the demand quite a bit. I'm glad they are not recognized by AKC. It just means they can't get screwed up by them like a lot of breeds.

[canyonduck]

All the breeders I know of will only sell to hunters. That limits the demand quite a bit. I'm glad they are not recognized by AKC. It just means they can't get screwed up by them like a lot of breeds.

Ditto with the Small Munsterlander.  Heck... One of my breeders required a 5 page application including copies of my hunting license and a picture of myself hunting.  Maybe a bit extreme, but it certainly ensures the dogs are going to the right homes.

[AspenBud]

All the breeders I know of will only sell to hunters. That limits the demand quite a bit. I'm glad they are not recognized by AKC. It just means they can't get screwed up by them like a lot of breeds.

That's why I would rather buy a dog with the letters FDSB associated with. Showing is not associated with that registry and while it guarantees nothing, it does tell me the intent of the breeding was for hunting.

[Ridgerunner]

I think the field golden retriever should be in the mix as consideration as well.  Definitely lots of options out there for guys. 

[MR5x5]

I prefer redheads 

[Happy Gilmore]

All the breeders I know of will only sell to hunters. That limits the demand quite a bit. I'm glad they are not recognized by AKC. It just means they can't get screwed up by them like a lot of breeds.

AKC just records the litter on paper. Has no influence or anything to do with breeders. They do not police, they do not do anything what so ever.

Not sure how the AKC has anything to do with screwing up a breed.

[wildweeds]

How they get ruined is a guy buys a pup,it's his very first dog and he thinks its the be all end all,breeds it sells the pups and so on and so forth.I've had 10 english setters,all of them fdsb/akc dual registered,4 sired by american field champs.Only two of those dogs were quality enough to consiously breed,and the breeders were NOT sired by the AF CH's.In no particular order but what rates high on my list is Health,in field performance,natural ability and smarts/trainability,birdfinding which I consider inherited,and confirmation to glide over the ground rather than pound it.I would bet that over half the litters registered are the product of my theory at the start of the post. I'm overly picky on what I would use myself.I was pretty pleased when I got a call from a guy I sold a pup to who has had setters for over 30 years and he told me that his pup was the best dog he's ever bought.He's had dogs from all the heavy hitters in setters,Robertsons,Tekoa,Havelock,Grouse Ridge and Long gone.

Double edged sword though,a really big name kennell has lots of unfilled pre ordered pups,the demand to produce pups for sale can override the selection of the best and get into the breeding on paper gamble.You'll know that kennel when you see it,big fancy website and about 3 studs and 15 dams.

All boils down to a semi educated inkling crap shoot.

All the breeders I know of will only sell to hunters. That limits the demand quite a bit. I'm glad they are not recognized by AKC. It just means they can't get screwed up by them like a lot of breeds.

AKC just records the litter on paper. Has no influence or anything to do with breeders. They do not police, they do not do anything what so ever.

Not sure how the AKC has anything to do with screwing up a breed.

[AspenBud]

How they get ruined is a guy buys a pup,it's his very first dog and he thinks its the be all end all,breeds it sells the pups and so on and so forth.I've had 10 english setters,all of them fdsb/akc dual registered,4 sired by american field champs.Only two of those dogs were quality enough to consiously breed,and the breeders were NOT sired by the AF CH's.In no particular order but what rates high on my list is Health,in field performance,natural ability and smarts/trainability,birdfinding which I consider inherited,and confirmation to glide over the ground rather than pound it.I would bet that over half the litters registered are the product of my theory at the start of the post. I'm overly picky on what I would use myself.I was pretty pleased when I got a call from a guy I sold a pup to who has had setters for over 30 years and he told me that his pup was the best dog he's ever bought.He's had dogs from all the heavy hitters in setters,Robertsons,Tekoa,Havelock,Grouse Ridge and Long gone.

Double edged sword though,a really big name kennell has lots of unfilled pre ordered pups,the demand to produce pups for sale can override the selection of the best and get into the breeding on paper gamble.You'll know that kennel when you see it,big fancy website and about 3 studs and 15 dams.

All boils down to a semi educated inkling crap shoot.

All the breeders I know of will only sell to hunters. That limits the demand quite a bit. I'm glad they are not recognized by AKC. It just means they can't get screwed up by them like a lot of breeds.

AKC just records the litter on paper. Has no influence or anything to do with breeders. They do not police, they do not do anything what so ever.

Not sure how the AKC has anything to do with screwing up a breed.

I think most folks only need look at Irish Setters to see what the AKC show world has done to destroy good lines.

English Setters, AF or AKC registered, are going to be more of a crap shoot and all over the map in ability since the breed has not seen the same high level of selectivity that English Pointers have over the years. That doesn't even touch on the differences between coverdog setters, horseback setters, Ryman setters, Llewellyn Setters, "dual" setters etc.

[wildweeds]

Thats the point I was trying to make............. Selection process.

[Happy Gilmore]

No breed registers are to blame. Large groups of individuals and individual breeders do it. I'm around a lot of dogs. I've seen every breed mentioned and promoted by whomever here and I've seen just as many big pos dogs of every breed as the other mentioned. Based upon how few breeders there are of the non akc dogs it narrows it down on where they came from and the p breeds, the d breeds, the f breeds, the b breeds ect. The are all equally worthless when they are not started correctly.

[canyonduck]

Happy Gilmore is correct is that all breeds will be worthless if not started correctly.  There is a wide body of research pointing to the critical first 16 weeks of a dog’s life.  The first 8 weeks come down to the breeder, but then when you take that pup home you have to hit all the right buttons to get the best out of “what your dog can be”.

Those first 16 weeks are in establishing confidence, comfort, socialization, etc….   After that then it’s genetics plus training.  The better the genetics the more likely you are to have a good dog, but you are going to have a rougher road to hoe if the dog wasn’t started correctly. 

There are several good non-hunting and hunting books available in getting the dog started correctly.  I suggest “The Art of Raising a Puppy” by The Monks of New Skete. 

[AspenBud]

Thats the point I was trying to make............. Selection process.

You're also touching on something a lot of people don't get. It's VERY hard to find a field champion. I will recommend buying from proven parents every time, but just because they won does not mean their offspring will ever do as well. Could be genetics, could be training, could be both. But I'll bet a lot that their offspring will make good consistently good hunting dogs in the right hands.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, just thinking out loud.   

[Happy Gilmore]

Thats the point I was trying to make............. Selection process.

You're also touching on something a lot of people don't get. It's VERY hard to find a field champion. I will recommend buying from proven parents every time, but just because they won does not mean their offspring will ever do as well. Could be genetics, could be training, could be both. But I'll bet a lot that their offspring will make good consistently good hunting dogs in the right hands.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, just thinking out loud.

One of the biggest problems lies with the breeders who make claims on their webpages which are misleading and often so incorrect it's amazing they can figure out how to let two dogs get knocked up let alone publish pure rubbish about their dogs on a webpage.

I'm going to start another thread on this subject now that I think about it...

[jetjockey]

If people don't think the AKC has ruined a lot of field bred dogs, they are blind.  The AKC sets breed standards based off the "look" they believe the dogs should have.  Nowhere do the standards talk about field ability, or intelligence, run, style, nose, retrieve, etc.   Because of that, dogs that are out of standard are not considered for breeding In the AKC circles.   IT doesn't matter if the dog is the best field dog the breed has ever seen, if it's out of standard, it's automatically considered a reject. Putting form over function has ruined many field dogs.