Bowhunter chased up tree by wolves in GMU 121!

[idahohuntr]

Before the wolf introduction 19000 elk ranged in the Yellowstone now there are less than 4000. My guess is neither one of you are interested in the truth, you just want to push the more habitat BS.

Clearly wolves have had an impact on the number of elk in yellowstone since their re-introduction.  But it is disingenuous to suggest that habitat does not play a large role in the abundance of a species.  Climate, winter severity, harvest outside the park, forage availability, disease, etc. all can have profound effects and many of these factors are difficult to observe like a pack of wolves chewing on an elk carcass.  Please explain why elk counts went from around 20,000 down to around 5000 in the 1945-1965 period in YNP?  Wolves? No. There were no wolves in the park.  Huh...if the wolves weren't there to kill them all it seems impossible that an elk herd could  decline.  Especially since we know habitat is irrelevant as you stated.   

18 years of proof on the ground in three states, and many lies told by the USFWS, state game agencies, and David Mech have been exposed, and yet state game biologists are still trying to push the same lies. I guess if the lies are told enough times they will even believe it themselves…..

Yea, 18 years and state agencies in MT, ID, WY have wolf management plans, wolf hunting seasons, and good elk hunting in most areas of each of those states.  If all these people are lying, and you wolf whackos have the science all figured out, then when will wolves reduce elk numbers such that we will no longer be able to hunt them?  No bs here, give me a date when I will no longer be able to buy an OTC elk tag in Idaho because the wolves have decimated elk numbers?  And then when we get to that year and we are still hunting elk (because they have a sustaining population) and wolves (because they have a sustaining population), lets agree all the wolf nutjobs (both the wolf whackos and the enviro greenies) have to stfu.   

[KFhunter]

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/docs/fgNews/2010aug.pdf

Since the return
of wolves to Idaho
15 years ago, Idaho’s
overall elk population
has dropped by 20
percent from 125,000
to about 100,000.

and counting......

An ongoing study in 11 elk management zones shows that
predators today are the primary cause of death among female
elk in five zones

Elk survival
depends primarily on
four factors: habitat
conditions, weather,
predation and hunter
harvest.

guess which one is most easily controlled?

[wolfbait]

Before the wolf introduction 19000 elk ranged in the Yellowstone now there are less than 4000. My guess is neither one of you are interested in the truth, you just want to push the more habitat BS.

Clearly wolves have had an impact on the number of elk in yellowstone since their re-introduction.  But it is disingenuous to suggest that habitat does not play a large role in the abundance of a species.  Climate, winter severity, harvest outside the park, forage availability, disease, etc. all can have profound effects and many of these factors are difficult to observe like a pack of wolves chewing on an elk carcass.  Please explain why elk counts went from around 20,000 down to around 5000 in the 1945-1965 period in YNP?  Wolves? No. There were no wolves in the park.  Huh...if the wolves weren't there to kill them all it seems impossible that an elk herd could  decline.  Especially since we know habitat is irrelevant as you stated.   

18 years of proof on the ground in three states, and many lies told by the USFWS, state game agencies, and David Mech have been exposed, and yet state game biologists are still trying to push the same lies. I guess if the lies are told enough times they will even believe it themselves…..

Yea, 18 years and state agencies in MT, ID, WY have wolf management plans, wolf hunting seasons, and good elk hunting in most areas of each of those states.  If all these people are lying, and you wolf whackos have the science all figured out, then when will wolves reduce elk numbers such that we will no longer be able to hunt them?  No bs here, give me a date when I will no longer be able to buy an OTC elk tag in Idaho because the wolves have decimated elk numbers?  And then when we get to that year and we are still hunting elk (because they have a sustaining population) and wolves (because they have a sustaining population), lets agree all the wolf nutjobs (both the wolf whackos and the enviro greenies) have to stfu. 

 First off how could there be 20000 elk in 1945 if the USFWS's wolves were killing the hell out of them? And if there was a bad winter in 1945 the USFWS's wolves would have wiped them out. You want to know when we will no longer be able to hunt elk because of wolves? Well have you noticed that in both WA and OR the wolves show up first in ranching country, I guess your answer would be when the USFWS figures it's time to end elk hunting, and starts planting wolves in the rest of the elk herds.

Or are you going to fence off the "habitat" no wolves allowed?

[KFhunter]

Thankfully our winters have been very mild with low snow levels.  Now that wolves are fairly well dispersed I'd hate to see a deep snow winter all the way down to lower elevations.

If a wolf free bad winter can knock out that many Elk,  combine the two and see what happens.

Please explain why elk counts went from around 20,000 down to around 5000 in the 1945-1965 period in YNP?  Wolves? No. There were no wolves in the park.  Huh...if the wolves weren't there to kill them all it seems impossible that an elk herd could  decline.

 


Actually I doubt that plays out again in YNP, humans will feed the Elk and haze the wolves off them in the feeding stations just outside of the park. 
but it could very well play out on the vast majority of current Elk populations.   We can't feed them all.
you'd have the perfect storm to seriously knock out the huntable Elk population - in mere months. 


As it is I see most western states going to less OTC tags to focus more than ever on population objectives and special draws.

[jon.brown509]

Thankfully our winters have been very mild with low snow levels.  Now that wolves are fairly well dispersed I'd hate to see a deep snow winter all the way down to lower elevations.

If a wolf free bad winter can knock out that many Elk,  combine the two and see what happens.

Please explain why elk counts went from around 20,000 down to around 5000 in the 1945-1965 period in YNP?  Wolves? No. There were no wolves in the park.  Huh...if the wolves weren't there to kill them all it seems impossible that an elk herd could  decline.

 


Actually I doubt that plays out again in YNP, humans will feed the Elk and haze the wolves off them in the feeding stations just outside of the park. 
but it could very well play out on the vast majority of current Elk populations.   We can't feed them all.
you'd have the perfect storm to seriously knock out the huntable Elk population - in mere months. 


As it is I see most western states going to less OTC tags to focus more than ever on population objectives and special draws.

 Alight here's some fun insight for you to think about why do we hunt to preserve wildlife in the absence of predators.well guess what there back for the first time in 50 years Elk are Nivea to wolves "due to only coyotes around for a long time" but as elk have gotten smarter and the wolves have reach a carrying capicty,the next decline is coming from Habitat Think when lewis and clark came threw how many elk where in lolo ? 0 thats right 0 what happened to allow elk to thrive there and YNP great fire of 1908 now all that vegetation is up high out of reach and that is causing a lower elk population as well wolves have rebounded almost perfectly
here's a graph to show you some numbers  and you can see how yes your hunting opportunity well drop but the heard number well start to raise you well see more areas become spike only and not too many cow tags but it well help conservation efforts to rebuild elk herds.

[KFhunter]

Your post flirts with coherent thought but never quite achieves it.


Not sure how you can make an argument about habitat when it's preserved, and what about the YNP fire of 1988?

[jon.brown509]

Your post flirts with coherent thought but never quite achieves it.


Not sure how you can make an argument about habitat when it's preserved, and what about the YNP fire of 1988?

Thank you  i'm working on my communication skills to other hunters since i'm going to be a advocate to everyone  here in the near future. as for the fire of 88 no where near as massive as the one in the early 1900s
There's a lot of data and information i was trying to keep it short and sweet if you want the full detail i could PM you them.
 here's a rough idea of how its working out

[KFhunter]

The Disney syndrome is strong in you; you'll make an excellent bio for the defenders of wildlife.


Now where is my box of crayons,  I'd like to draw a picture too.

[deaner]

i like how the neat little picture shows MORE elk in the pic with wolves and grizzlies than in the pic without.  very interesting.  and i guess the grizzly only came back after the wolf?

[JLS]

The Bison and Elk behave a lot like range cattle, something I know a little about. They stay down where it's safe. 

Much like Yellowstone, the Bison and Elk will literally hug people and activity to get away from the wolves, the park service will haze the wolves to keep them out of people areas creating safe zones where people view wildlife.  You didn't say if you hiked way back,  but I think a guy will only get a very small picture of the park from the blacktop and tourist areas.

Well, we weren't on the blacktop.  We had skiied several miles back into the original wolf central, the Lamar Valley.

I've been hearing this apocalyptic prediction now for almost 20 years.  You guys can do all you want to try and dispell the importance of habitat.  Knock yourselves out.

You can ridicule those of us who don't believe the doomsday predictions.  The reality is I can cite you many instances where there are wolves and there are still deer and elk after many years.

I'm with Idaho.  You guys keep rattling on about the doom and gloom and I'll keep hunting elk.   

[JLS]

The Disney syndrome is strong in you; you'll make an excellent bio for the defenders of wildlife.


Now where is my box of crayons,  I'd like to draw a picture too.

Say what you want, Yellowstone NP and the Yellowstone Valley from Gardiner to Emigrant were severely overgrazed when the elk herd was at 20k elk.

[KFhunter]

I'm still wait and see JLS

I do know the immediate effect on range cattle.  I follow Elk around in the winter months and see where the wolves are always just a step or two behind constantly bumping them over and over, never letting them feed or rest until one falls over giving the others a day or two respite.

I see how the Elk no longer stay on bait stations until opening archery season, they get bumped off if they stay too long.


They are moving constantly

[KFhunter]

The Disney syndrome is strong in you; you'll make an excellent bio for the defenders of wildlife.


Now where is my box of crayons,  I'd like to draw a picture too.

Say what you want, Yellowstone NP and the Yellowstone Valley from Gardiner to Emigrant were severely overgrazed when the elk herd was at 20k elk.

Of course, no hunting in the park.  It makes since to put in wolves but unfortunately they don't stay there.   

[jon.brown509]

The Bison and Elk behave a lot like range cattle, something I know a little about. They stay down where it's safe. 

Much like Yellowstone, the Bison and Elk will literally hug people and activity to get away from the wolves, the park service will haze the wolves to keep them out of people areas creating safe zones where people view wildlife.  You didn't say if you hiked way back,  but I think a guy will only get a very small picture of the park from the blacktop and tourist areas.

Well, we weren't on the blacktop.  We had skiied several miles back into the original wolf central, the Lamar Valley.

I've been hearing this apocalyptic prediction now for almost 20 years.  You guys can do all you want to try and dispell the importance of habitat.  Knock yourselves out.

You can ridicule those of us who don't believe the doomsday predictions.  The reality is I can cite you many instances where there are wolves and there are still deer and elk after many years.

I'm with Idaho.  You guys keep rattling on about the doom and gloom and I'll keep hunting elk.

  Thank you

[JLS]

and I guess Bison are extinct 

They would be in the Montana Dept of Livestock had their way.