Yellowstone is Dead

[jon.brown509]

Did this Ed Bangs say anything about those first two pictures?  Anything about the fact the first picture shows what looks to be ice and snow and the other does not?  The difference in pictures between only a few weeks in the NE can show similar results.

I'm not doubting this Bangs character.  But pictures need a story.  How long since the last freeze?  Are pictures equal in years with rainfall totals and temperatures?  Where were the bison roaming between these two years.  Many other questions would need to be answered in an environment like YNP before one could put any weight between year to year photos.  There are just too many variables to rely on photographic proof without a complete workup on content and environmental equivalency.

  Gottcha I well try to put the history behind the photos This is in the Lamar Valley in northern Yellowstone.
I'll ask around about the bison makes me wander on somethings.

[Bob33]

Because new packs are started by Alphas who haven't learned stay the hell away from livestock yet and end up getting members of the packs killed.Than the farmer gets compensated for his loss and hopefully gains trust in knowing that if there's a problem that it well be taken care of right away.I know this is happening right now with the Wedge pack  up north in WA by Canada

Can you name a single rancher in the Wedge pack region that has gained "trust in knowing if there's a problem that it will be taken care of right away."?

[Elkaholic daWg]

 If there is we have a couple members up there that will let us know, or NOT!

[Wacenturion]

"And here's a graph of wildlife populations in YNP.
  :twocents:How's that Baloney ? I am a hunter I Think theres nothing more awesome than a giant bull Elk my personal favorite .One of the reasons I went and helped restored winter grounds around YNP for elk .  What the hell have you done to help with the problem? I may be real green but at least I'm trying to make a difference and solve the situation to help stabilize predators through out the north west.Figure its better me than some wolf loving tree licking dirt humping psycho from California"



On the wolf issue...nothing except expressing an opinion.  One I might add I feel qualified to give.  I too went the the University of Idaho, graduating in 1973 with a degree in Wildlife Management as well as a second one in Fish Management.   I have never put this out there since joining this forum, but I then spent 30+ years working for WDFW as a field biologist as well as a Regional staff member finishing up an administrator for statewide programs in the Olympia headquarters office.

You have to realize one important thing, and I do not mean this to be degrading.  College professors who spend their lives in academia and doing research on the side, certainly do not have the same perspective as a wildlife professional who works with the public actually managing the resource in the field.  Studies come up with all kinds of recommendations, but seldom are they implemented.  What's the point of a study that funded, but the implementation is not?  The only thing it actually does is pad some reseach biologist's resume.

Another tidbit for you.  Reseach is only as good as the researcher himself.  To be credible, reseach has to be done in an unbiased way.  Unfortunately that is pretty damn difficult to achieve.  Everyone has their own views and they can easily bend the results.  You like wolves, your reseach will, whether you want it to or not, error on the wolf's side.  You don't like wolves you find ways to slant it the other way.  Just human nature.  Seen it happen many times.  With that said, it's still worthless without implementation to address what the research was actually for.   

Planning is another smoke and mirror game.  Just go check different states and their 5 year plans and see just how much actually was accomplished.  Very little.  The reason being they are filled with a bunch of minutia and worthless unobtainable nonsense.  But it sure looks professional.  I have always called it "safe ground" at high tide.  Never actually have to get you feet wet and implement anything.  Just spend your career going to meetings with like minded people, planning and then tell the public there is no money to do anything.  Cycle repeats and they start a new planning effort because now we are talking Ecosystem Management rather than an outdated terminology used for the previous five years.  Nothing but new buzz words every few years to deflect why nothing gets done.  I could go on forever, but I'm assuming you're getting my drift.

In closing my little rant, I can proudly say that I never forgot who I worked for.  That was the public of Washington State, and more importantly the ones we refer to as hunters and fishermen.  I owe each and every one of them my gratitude for a job I thoroughly enjoyed.  It was a career that just went to fast.  In the end I got fed up with the politics.  Wildlife management had not only become disfunctional in my mind, but was abandoning the people that had actually funded it's existence for years and years.   I fought battles all through my career with those who considered those folks..."Joe Sixpack".  They found more ways to do nothing for wildlife than one can imagine, but they sure as hell had the planning process mastered.

As I said previously, the wolf success story was one we didn't need.  How do you justify selling reintroduction of a native species with a larger nonnative Canadian wolf?  That should have been a giant red flag to begin with.  I wouldn't be to naive about what the real intent actually was.

Good luck in your career. 



 

[KFhunter]

The story isn't going to play out the same across all the states and YNP,  a lot of the stuff we're learning from YNP isn't really relevant to other public and private lands.

Correct, as we have seen in both OR and WA wolves are showing up first in cattle ranching areas, Why is this happening? Are wolves more attracted to livestock then say elk, deer, or moose on their "migration" from Idaho?

 Because new packs are started by Alphas who haven't learned stay the hell away from livestock yet and end up getting members of the packs killed.Than the farmer gets compensated for his loss and hopefully gains trust in knowing that if there's a problem that it well be taken care of right away.I know this is happening right now with the Wedge pack  up north in WA by Canada

You'd be very wrong. 

Compensation is a misnomer as well and spouted by wolf huggers all over the place.  "Why do the ranchers care, they're compensated for their losses" but this isn't true.   

For one, in order to be compensated it must be confirmed as a wolf kill.  I've been chasing around the wedge cattle for 30+ years and while a cow would die here and there occasionally the losses suffered just after the wolves arrival was something else.  So far the averages are about 30 dead per 1 confirmed wolf kill. Basically the wolf had to be caught with hereford in its mouth to be a confirmed wolf kill.  The bio's up there seemed VERY reluctant and had to actually get permission from Olympia to confirm a wolf kill.

Now a direct wolf kill is only a small part of the equation when you're talking losses to ranchers.  The biggest loss is cattle being harassed to the point they won't gain weight while on range.  They come off range not ready for market, but needing to be fattened up so you have a higher feedlot cost.  None of this is currently attributed to wolves, but it's a byproduct of wolves on range.

Also another big cost incurred is range riders, every day these team of guys drive a truck to the woods with half a dozen horses and chase the cows back up on range where the grass is taller, otherwise the wolves push them right back down to the loading areas where people are and the cattle over graze there.  Another large cost is lost calves and barren cows,  stressed cows don't breed so well so the percentages of unbred cows have been much higher. 

So saying ranchers are "compensated" infuriates me because it's simply not true.

Oh and BTW the McIrvins (largest cattle producer in NE/WA) refuse any "compensation",  for the reasons I articulated above.  They feel that if they take compensation it'll dampen their voice in the political arena.  "you've been paid off, why do you care?"

I agree with them.  If someone offered me a stipend for a loss I suffered I'd tell them to pound sand too.

Oh and another thing the total compensation per ranch/household is capped, and for the life of me I cannot remember the dollar amount but I think it's $10k or something like that.  The Diamond M was well above that figure, had they taken any compensation that is.

[RadSav]

I enjoyed that post Wacenturion 

[KFhunter]

The greenhorn has a lot to learn, and would be wise to not discredit other's experiences and opinions. 

Perhaps this is what rubbed me so wrong about him and why I was hostile; I wrote him off as a college brat who knew more than everyone here because he was paying for his education not with experience, but with cash.

[jon.brown509]

The greenhorn has a lot to learn, and would be wise to not discredit other's experiences and opinions. 

Perhaps this is what rubbed me so wrong about him and why I was hostile; I wrote him off as a college brat who knew more than everyone here because he was paying for his education not with experience, but with cash.

Thank you a lot of mine is hard time in the field, I had to watch the blues go to *censored* growing up outside walla walla from piss poor management.One big reason i'm wanting change,along with my in laws own one of largest dairy farms in Montana and i spend alot of time up there in the mission valley dealing with grizzly and wolves,"lived there for almost 1.5 years"
And if that biologist up there where the wedge pack isn't doing there job than that biologist can go to hell in my book,One main goal for me is to never lose my integrity in the field "
 Down in Montana the biologist there was awesome his techs would leave us cards and cell numbers all we had to do was send them a pick of a dead calf and they would saddle up and remove "wolf" or transplant the bear i assumed that was going on up there.Its sad to hear that it is not going on, in the end like Wacenturion said "I can proudly say that I never forgot who I worked for.  That was the public of Washington State, and more importantly the ones we refer to as hunters and fishermen.  I owe each and every one of them my gratitude for a job I thoroughly enjoyed"
i hope to engage and balance out hunters and predators as a end goal but until i get done we won't see that happen,Might see me go to Montana if seattle screws everything up too bad lol

[RadSav]

The greenhorn has a lot to learn, and would be wise to not discredit other's experiences and opinions. 

Perhaps this is what rubbed me so wrong about him and why I was hostile; I wrote him off as a college brat who knew more than everyone here because he was paying for his education not with experience, but with cash.

I think he is paying for his education with GI bill if I got that right from our conversation. 

Black and white is pretty common with college students.  How many of them told us how wonderful Obama was before they fully understood what drives the economy and learned more than the garbage history of communism taught in high school history class.  But, I like take it as a positive.  We need more youth with passion and drive.  Could be going to college with no idea what he wants to do in life, spending mom and dads money while he skips class, plays video games and drinks to levels of unconsciousness.

Hopefully with experience will come the ability to see ways to analyze without prejudice one way or the other.  As Wacenturion eluded to that's a hard thing to do.  Especially when surrounded by the sheep of society and the pressures of an employer.  I got a good feeling from his PM to me.  And I too will try and remain as open minded as possible while trying to see the facts rather than accept them as interpreted by one individual's view.  I'm twice his age and I struggle with it still.

[KFhunter]

what do you think about our current cougar plan?


I talked with the WSU students almost daily while they were doing their study, I had open invites to chase the cats with dogs to radio collar them.  It Was one guy (I won't name names) and two females, the girls were a bit ditzy the but dude was squared away in my opinion.

Anyways we had a lot of discussions about the cats in the wedge. 

Now we have our current cougar plan and I feel like I was stabbed in the back.

[KFhunter]

The greenhorn has a lot to learn, and would be wise to not discredit other's experiences and opinions. 

Perhaps this is what rubbed me so wrong about him and why I was hostile; I wrote him off as a college brat who knew more than everyone here because he was paying for his education not with experience, but with cash.

I think he is paying for his education with GI bill if I got that right from our conversation. 

Black and white is pretty common with college students.  How many of them told us how wonderful Obama was before they fully understood what drives the economy and learned more than the garbage history of communism taught in high school history class.  But, I like take it as a positive.  We need more youth with passion and drive.  Could be going to college with no idea what he wants to do in life, spending mom and dads money while he skips class, plays video games and drinks to levels of unconsciousness.

Hopefully with experience will come the ability to see ways to analyze without prejudice one way or the other.  As Wacenturion eluded to that's a hard thing to do.  Especially when surrounded by the sheep of society and the pressures of an employer.  I got a good feeling from his PM to me.  And I too will try and remain as open minded as possible while trying to see the facts rather than accept them as interpreted by one individual's view.  I'm twice his age and I struggle with it still.

I think he's getting an education now 

[Bob33]

According to the NPS it's not.

http://www.nps.gov/yell/parknews/12084.htm

The number of recreational visitors entering Yellowstone for the first nine months of the calendar year is up compared to 2011. The park recorded 3,238,128 recreational visitors from January through September 2012, a 1.5 percent year-to-year increase.

[Axle]

The greenhorn has a lot to learn, and would be wise to not discredit other's experiences and opinions. 

Perhaps this is what rubbed me so wrong about him and why I was hostile; I wrote him off as a college brat who knew more than everyone here because he was paying for his education not with experience, but with cash.

Yup!
And he doesn't know a damned thing about the wet side or the destruction from wolves in the western states (whether now or in the past).
To say the west side needs wolves (or needs to catch up) is to be young and stupid on the truth. Cougars have decimated the ungulates here in the past 30 years. The disastrous effects can only be seen by those who have lived through this. Others will simply believe the lies told by the WDFW and the liberal media. The employees of the WDFW and government employees in Olympia will do anything to protect their paychecks and retirement plans even if it involves going along with the corruption we are now experiencing. The destruction from cougars started long before the ravenous and disease-carrying, non-native wolf. The wolf has a long way to go in destroying the ungulates to the same degree as the big cats (though in some areas it has been severe and hard-hitting by wolves). The wolf is just the icing on the cake for anti hunters and gun grabbers. Not only have the big cats killed them off by the hundreds of thousands, but the elk have since taken refuge in towns and range land where they have been exposed to hoof-rot diseases (wet side) which further decimates the herds. They come down out of the mountains to seek refuge from predators and feel somewhat safe in towns and farmlands only to be introduced to diseases carried by farm animals which have been passed around and spreading diseases. Sounds like double jeopardy. Also sounds like poor management of our 'wild' ungulates.

And the ridiculous pictures and drawing don't prove a thing. An artist can make a case by painting anything he/she wants. The drawing proves nothing except for what the hunter-hunters want; which is, no hunting at all. The drawing proves nothing at all. I know the anti-hunters say there is more grass and there is more food for beavers but they have absolutely no proof. They say the food for beavers is improving and the beavers have 'become more numerous' but that isn't true. Elk don't eat the same food that beavers eat. By killing off the elk, it has not brought beaver numbers up (but this is what they want you to believe). Elk don't eat trees, beavers don't ear grass, and beaver numbers have been increasing since long before elk numbers plummeted. Beavers also don't create a viable hunting mecca nor do they bring in the revenue that elk hunting once did for communities in western states. Think about it.....hunters don't go out of their way, spend thousand of dollars, then travel thousand of miles to hunt and eat beaver. I have a strong feeling I could be chastised for saying this 

The pictures don't prove a thing either. You can take a picture of a grassy area at different times of the year and get different results. Those pictures are a joke! They don't prove a thing except that there are those who will believe a lie. Besides - if you get rid of the ungulates to the point where you have heavenly-envisioned grass and shrubs (a mental utopia for the brainless) then you will have grass and forest fires like you've never seen which will cause destruction - the likes all of us have yet to see.

And have you seen all the grass and shrubs and trees inhabiting the wet side? - I think not! Otherwise your comments would be different.
Then again - history has shown that some generations need to experience devastation so their offspring will suffer near-extinction to the point where the next generation will become wise again. It seems to go in cycles.

I remember the older generation when I spent a few years in Oklahoma. They hated the wolves and shot them at any opportunity. During those days, there were no whitetails to be seen. It wasn't until years later when the deer could return. I spent 3 years in Oklahoma. I heard the wolves howl at night. During that time, there wasn't a deer to be seen. Once the wolves were mostly killed off, the deer were able to repopulate. Experience is a valuable lesson. Some of my best experiences were in learning truth through trapping. The younger generation has a tough lesson ahead. I suspect I will be here to witness it.

[bearpaw]

"And here's a graph of wildlife populations in YNP.
  :twocents:How's that Baloney ? I am a hunter I Think theres nothing more awesome than a giant bull Elk my personal favorite .One of the reasons I went and helped restored winter grounds around YNP for elk .  What the hell have you done to help with the problem? I may be real green but at least I'm trying to make a difference and solve the situation to help stabilize predators through out the north west.Figure its better me than some wolf loving tree licking dirt humping psycho from California"



On the wolf issue...nothing except expressing an opinion.  One I might add I feel qualified to give.  I too went the the University of Idaho, graduating in 1973 with a degree in Wildlife Management as well as a second one in Fish Management.   I have never put this out there since joining this forum, but I then spent 30+ years working for WDFW as a field biologist as well as a Regional staff member finishing up an administrator for statewide programs in the Olympia headquarters office.

You have to realize one important thing, and I do not mean this to be degrading.  College professors who spend their lives in academia and doing research on the side, certainly do not have the same perspective as a wildlife professional who works with the public actually managing the resource in the field.  Studies come up with all kinds of recommendations, but seldom are they implemented.  What's the point of a study that funded, but the implementation is not?  The only thing it actually does is pad some reseach biologist's resume.

Another tidbit for you.  Reseach is only as good as the researcher himself.  To be credible, reseach has to be done in an unbiased way.  Unfortunately that is pretty damn difficult to achieve.  Everyone has their own views and they can easily bend the results.  You like wolves, your reseach will, whether you want it to or not, error on the wolf's side.  You don't like wolves you find ways to slant it the other way.  Just human nature.  Seen it happen many times.  With that said, it's still worthless without implementation to address what the research was actually for.   

Planning is another smoke and mirror game.  Just go check different states and their 5 year plans and see just how much actually was accomplished.  Very little.  The reason being they are filled with a bunch of minutia and worthless unobtainable nonsense.  But it sure looks professional.  I have always called it "safe ground" at high tide.  Never actually have to get you feet wet and implement anything.  Just spend your career going to meetings with like minded people, planning and then tell the public there is no money to do anything.  Cycle repeats and they start a new planning effort because now we are talking Ecosystem Management rather than an outdated terminology used for the previous five years.  Nothing but new buzz words every few years to deflect why nothing gets done.  I could go on forever, but I'm assuming you're getting my drift.

In closing my little rant, I can proudly say that I never forgot who I worked for.  That was the public of Washington State, and more importantly the ones we refer to as hunters and fishermen.  I owe each and every one of them my gratitude for a job I thoroughly enjoyed.  It was a career that just went to fast.  In the end I got fed up with the politics.  Wildlife management had not only become disfunctional in my mind, but was abandoning the people that had actually funded it's existence for years and years.   I fought battles all through my career with those who considered those folks..."Joe Sixpack".  They found more ways to do nothing for wildlife than one can imagine, but they sure as hell had the planning process mastered.

As I said previously, the wolf success story was one we didn't need.  How do you justify selling reintroduction of a native species with a larger nonnative Canadian wolf?  That should have been a giant red flag to begin with.  I wouldn't be to naive about what the real intent actually was.

Good luck in your career. 

One of the best posts I've ever read on this forum. Thanks for your incredible service to this state, wished you were still working for us. 

[HUNTINCOUPLE]

There is a common sense reason our forfathers eradicated the wolfs in this country. They didn't need biological data to figure that out. Humans are the #1 predator and we need to fend for our freezers and the feeding of our families. Wolfs are no good for nothing........